What is Zen what will be your answer?

[Dojin]

Re: What is Zen what will be your answer?

well i have tried answering that question many many times...
i live in Israel where Buddhism and zen in particular are pretty much non existent, there are some groups that sit but its mostly Tibetan Buddhism and maybe about 5 groups of zen for the entire country, no teacher though.

so when i say i am practice zen i usually get a weird look and a question about it. to tell you the truth i found it is impossible to explain, people just dont get it... or might i even say dont wish to get it.
mostly i hear how can you not believe in god?! or how did the universe get created in my opinion? or that what i say contradicts itself.
what i came to believe is that people dont really want to understand it and therefor i dont really try to explain, in the odd chance they actually do they usually come from a certain point of view and dont wish to think of other views and therefor its hard for them to accept.

so usually i just tell them that its just nothing and there is no real difference between zen and anything else since zen is pretty much everything, and i cant put a tag on it. or that the only way to understand it is to practice it.
or maybe many many other things i might say. but usually i just get lost in the words and cant really explain it intellectually.

one thing i must say that the more i listen to the talks Jundo gives i feel he actually talks about the same thing, and i dont mean the actual same thing but the core of it deep down comes from the same place, there is something there that makes it the same ( but it still rings true to me on every level although sometimes contradictory ). some hidden meaning or notion... yet i dont really know what it is, and for me that is zen... knowing with your heart of hearts that something is true, yet never really knowing what it is and yet trusting it entirely.

Gassho
Daniel, who once again spoke to much and lost his point in the chatter.

[prg5001]

Re: What is Zen what will be your answer?

Hi,

I may be going out on a limb here but one answer is that zen is one of the main Buddhist traditions.

Really though, it does depend on who is asking and why. Where did they get the word 'zen' from?

cheers,

Paul

[Martin]

Re: What is Zen what will be your answer?

As many of you have said, the reply would depend on the circumstances. I fear that I'd feel a pressure (coming only from within me) to say something "clever" or "zen" and would end up being incoherent as a result. I'd like to think that I would resist that pressure and just try to give a reply that was helpful.

I heard an interview with Brad Warner once where Brad was asked "What exactly is Zen?" and he replied "It's (kind of) a way of looking at reality". I thought that was probably helpful.

Gassho

Martin

[undeceivable]

Re: What is Zen what will be your answer?

"It's about not getting too caught up in my thoughts and focusing on what I'm doing and doing it properly. I also sit for 30 minutes in Zazen, learning to just sit with the thoughts and emotions I have. Again, not getting caught up in them. Just trying to become better at that, I suppose is what Zen is to me. "

That's what I think. But I probably wouldn't say that. Unless someone was really interested

[Taigu]

Re: What is Zen what will be your answer?

The answer to what is Zen?... Yes, I agree with Jundo, your first answer is really good. The answer could also be another question such as...who is asking?
Gassho

Taigu


PS. Did you all finish your rakusu? I wonder. What is the answer?

[Taigu]

Re: What is Zen what will be your answer?

Hi Martin,

By the way, I kind of disagree with the great Brad...

A kind of way of looking at reality

? No, because reality is always as is, looking at it in certain way makes it unreal. It could be

Reality watching itself, reality watching you

. Brad could have phrased it differently like...

a way to look at illusion, or self-delusion.

.

Just a deluded thought...

Taigu

[Rev R]

Re: What is Zen what will be your answer?

so when i say i am practice zen i usually get a weird look and a question about it.

I usually just get the weird look, that could be because I'm not the prettiest boy in town though.

Once a fellow tried to evangelize me, he was literally speechless when I told him. Honestly, I love that moment when the little thought balloon bursts and all you can think is "huh?".

mostly i hear how can you not believe in god?! or how did the universe get created in my opinion? or that what i say contradicts itself.

I get that sometimes too, but mainly because I'm fairly open about my atheism.

what i came to believe is that people dont really want to understand it and therefor i dont really try to explain, in the odd chance they actually do they usually come from a certain point of view and dont wish to think of other views and therefor its hard for them to accept.

I think you are right to a point Daniel, but there is also somewhat of a stereotype that the world of Zen is mysterious, mystical, exotic, and just unapproachable to mere mortals.

R(odney)



[/quote]

[Sho Nin]

Re: What is Zen what will be your answer?

No answer is more correct than another. I think a good answer is one that best helps the beginner to get a general understanding of what Zen is.

If you give an opaque 'koan-like' response, you are probably showing off. Unless the beginner is a fool he or she will recognise that and probably think you are a smart-arse, become immediately alienated from you and from zen practice, thinking it is a bunch of pointless, pretentious nonsense.

Since the asker is a beginner, the most useful sort of answer would be straightforward and conventional.

Such as:
Zen is a form of Buddhism that emphasises meditation and direct contemplation of reality

[Taigu]

Re: What is Zen what will be your answer?

Hi Sho Nin,

Thank you for your imput. If I may say ( and please, take this with great caution)
I am a beginner. So are all of us. We are not talking about what should be the correct answer, the propper form for beginners over there...
Don't you see? It is about you. You. You. Your life.My life.
Zen is not a form of Buddhism. Where did you get that from? Zen is Buddhism. Before and after, Zen is sitting. Sitting as life.
It does not emphasise anything as such. Emphasis? Duality!?...
Reality? Who is seing reality?

These are not Koan. Real questions I ask myself everyday...as a beginner.
Anyway, thank you for sitting your bum on a cushion and reading my empty prose.

be well

gassho


Taigu

[Sho Nin]

Re: What is Zen what will be your answer?

Yes I know it's about this life, this moment. Everything is this, this, this. This is already this, why the need to add 'Zen'? An answer like that is fine, but its also open to a great deal of misunderstanding. The listener might not know what 'this' refers to. They might think it refers to the physical world, or living for the moment and all sorts of misunderstandings I've heard over the years.

But that wouldn't help a beginner.

If you gave your answer to my wife she wouldn't be enlightened. She'd probably be tempted to punch you.

To say Zen is Buddhism not a form of Buddhism disrespects all other Buddhist sects that don't call themselves Zen. This is a sectarian attitude.

Why are you repelled by conventional understanding?

What sort of answer to give depends on what is appropriate for the asker: what sort of beginner? A total beginner or an active practitioner who is ready to move beyond the purely conventional?

[Taigu]

Re: What is Zen what will be your answer?

Dear Sho Nin,

Thank you for taking the time to answer me. I might be a bit challenging...Do you mind? :wink:

You start your post with I know. Well, I don t. That is why I consider myself as a beginner. Because I constantly miss the point, the moment, the actual moment. May I suggest you ask yourself Who says I know?.
Helping a beginner is beyond my ability. Maybe you can do it. Afer some 32 years of practice, I cannot really. Even if I received the Dharma, I consider that I am not worthy of It. Every morning I get up and find myself back to square one.Helping others is to do the job ourselves. Not trying to find the right answer for the right person, but just get on with our crooked lives. If the listener knows what thisb refers to', it is a bad sign. Your invitation should be to take her or him to the place where there is no more I know. We are not talking about Zen in thirty lessons or Zen for dummies, we are talking about real life. everyday life, not books, not dictionnaries or conventionnal knowledge. As a ex University Professor, I have the experience of that kind of knowledge, believe me, it is more or less pointless.

Congratulation, you have a strong wife! And, thank God, I have no intention to enlighten her. If I meet your wife I would presumably get on with my crooked life because I am nothing to prove to her. It is just the way it is.

About the sectarian attitude...Well, let me tell you a story. Two years ago I visited a temple in Daitokuji, Kyoto. A Rinzai temple where a delightful abbot invited me for a tea. I could not speak a word of Japanese but we were both laughing like stupid kids and having a real great time. There was a young monk there, in his twenties, who started to challenge me in his brave and bold English saying that I should study the Japanese way, learn the ceremonies, because Zen was Japanese! I was loosing my time doing Takuhatsu and begging, I was a deluded Gaijin! And so on...My simple answer was that Zen is not Japanese. Zen is even beyond Buddhism. And Zen could be found in the West as well as in the East. He lost it at the great delight of my host, the old abbot, who was enhjoying the whole row between these two roosters.

Well Thank you, here you are again apparently. You don t have to call yourself Zen to be it. Many people would not say they are christian but they actually behave like christians. You don t need to say that you are a human being, do you? Things, people, stuff exist without the need to be named. Why would Zen be Buddhism. Because. it originated, in this form, under the Bodhi tree when Gautama sat in lotus posture watching the morning star. The core of Zen is this practice, as it is the core in all Buddhist traditions. exept some late Mahayana paths such as Jodo shin Shu but even then, in the eyes and behaviour of old the Jodo shin practionner that shares my train journey every morning from Umeda to Mino I see the esssence of Zen.

My invitation. Sit. Ten more years. And ten more years again. But you may know the quote. Do it, then.
The sectarian attitude is to see forms of Buddhism as forms of Buddhism. Once you see the deep interconnectedness, the common ground, the empty field in all of them, you can say that this is Zen. When this morning the Jodo shin guy talked to me he was looking at me a if I were Amida. This was wonderful. A complete non sectarian attitude.

Thank you and good luck with ...your life.

gassho

Taigu

[Sho Nin]

Re: What is Zen what will be your answer?

You start your post with I know. Well, I don t. That is why I consider myself as a beginner. Because I constantly miss the point, the moment, the actual moment. May I suggest you ask yourself Who says I know?.

No one says. What it is is what it is. You can make me fall over my own words if you like. I don't claim to be free of delusions, but I understand that the meaning of Zen is *this*. I can't grab some and hold it

Helping a beginner is beyond my ability. Maybe you can do it. Afer some 32 years of practice, I cannot really. Even if I received the Dharma, I consider that I am not worthy of It. Every morning I get up and find myself back to square one.Helping others is to do the job ourselves. Not trying to find the right answer for the right person, but just get on with our crooked lives.

You consider youself 'beginner' and theat it is 'beyond your ability' and you are 'not worthy' and then you 'casually' drop the fact that you've been practicing 32 years into conversation. Is this modesty or false modesty? While you hesitate, waiting for certainty to arise, the beginner walks away or lives out their life and dies. The opportunity to be released from suffering is gone. A provisional response will suffice to help this person, no need to wait for a perfect one.

If the listener knows what thisb refers to', it is a bad sign. Your invitation should be to take her or him to the place where there is no more I know. We are not talking about Zen in thirty lessons or Zen for dummies, we are talking about real life. everyday life, not books, not dictionnaries or conventionnal knowledge. As a ex University Professor, I have the experience of that kind of knowledge, believe me, it is more or less pointless.

I thought you felt you were unworthy even to give a lesson to a complete beginner, yet you are giving me a lesson now. Everything that depends on words and concepts is conventional understanding. Zen for Dummies may be a good at the introductory level. I have a copy of Islam for Dummies and it's really not bad.

Congratulation, you have a strong wife! And, thank God, I have no intention to enlighten her. If I meet your wife I would presumably get on with my crooked life because I am nothing to prove to her. It is just the way it is.

Fair enough. And yet I have to safely answer her questions about Zen!

About the sectarian attitude...Well, let me tell you a story. Two years ago I visited a temple in Daitokuji, Kyoto. A Rinzai temple where a delightful abbot invited me for a tea. I could not speak a word of Japanese but we were both laughing like stupid kids and having a real great time. There was a young monk there, in his twenties, who started to challenge me in his brave and bold English saying that I should study the Japanese way, learn the ceremonies, because Zen was Japanese! I was loosing my time doing Takuhatsu and begging, I was a deluded Gaijin! And so on...My simple answer was that Zen is not Japanese. Zen is even beyond Buddhism. And Zen could be found in the West as well as in the East. He lost it at the great delight of my host, the old abbot, who was enhjoying the whole row between these two roosters.

Seems like a good answer. You were both right, but in different ways. We can trace Zen's journey: India, China, Japan, the West and yet it was already here. But if it never arrived would we be able to recognise that it was already here?

Well Thank you, here you are again apparently. You don t have to call yourself Zen to be it. Many people would not say they are christian but they actually behave like christians. You don t need to say that you are a human being, do you? Things, people, stuff exist without the need to be named. Why would Zen be Buddhism. Because. it originated, in this form, under the Bodhi tree when Gautama sat in lotus posture watching the morning star. The core of Zen is this practice, as it is the core in all Buddhist traditions. exept some late Mahayana paths such as Jodo shin Shu but even then, in the eyes and behaviour of old the Jodo shin practionner that shares my train journey every morning from Umeda to Mino I see the esssence of Zen.

My invitation. Sit. Ten more years. And ten more years again. But you may know the quote. Do it, then.
The sectarian attitude is to see forms of Buddhism as forms of Buddhism. Once you see the deep interconnectedness, the common ground, the empty field in all of them, you can say that this is Zen. When this morning the Jodo shin guy talked to me he was looking at me a if I were Amida. This was wonderful. A complete non sectarian attitude.

Thank you for the lesson. Gassho

[Shui_Di]

Re: What is Zen what will be your answer?

Hi Taigu and Sho Nin, thanks for your input...

and for all folks, thanks for your replies...

Sometimes, I also answer it with a conventional way, like Zen is one of the Buddhism teaching which was brought from India to China by Bodhidharma, and has been spread to another country like Korea and Japan.

But if they ask me, what is the Zen teaching?

The answer can have a lot of variety....


Gassho, Shuidi

[egbrooks]

Re: What is Zen what will be your answer?

Hi All,
Great discussion! I've been asked this question several times. In every instance the 'answer' is awkward. However, I at least make something up with a smile on my face. Zen is silly.

take care,
eric

[Martin]

Re: What is Zen what will be your answer?

Taigu

I liked your take on Brad Warner's comment: reality watching iteslf, or reality watching me.

And yes, I'm (still) finishing my Rakusu. Or perhaps my Rakusu is finishing me.

Gassho

Martin