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ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE -
I was very glad you brought this up. I think there is far too little discussion of this in the Buddhist world. My suspicion is when the research is done they'll find it is usually a combination of a more intense meditation practice combined with a pre-existing condition.Thank you, Jundo and everyone who responded. The article went against my experience, but I think awareness of differing views and discussion of controversy is healthy. I hope I wasn't being unskillful in how I presented the article, as I agree that this is a gentle practice.
Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah
And in my experience there are too few teachers like Jundo who will say things like
Gassho, JimThey should only have been engaged in the practice under medical supervision. Persons with pre-existing psychological conditions should only engage in Zazen or other meditation with permission and supervision by a doctor or mental health professional.
ST/LaH
Sent from my SM-T510 using TapatalkLast edited by JimInBC; 03-19-2021, 02:35 AM.No matter how much zazen we do, poor people do not become wealthy, and poverty does not become something easy to endure.
Kōshō Uchiyama, Opening the Hand of ThoughtComment
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I have seen abstracts from a study done as part of a doctorate, which paint a similar picture. Apologies but my needle is difficult to locate again in the haystack of the internet .
I committed to memory what I felt were the significant findings:
Mindfulness meditation of up to 30 minutes per day had positive results. More than 30 minutes per day, saw negative effects increase proportionately.
It was specifcally about mindfulness - not shikantaza.
In Gassho
Seiko
stlahLast edited by Seiko; 03-19-2021, 11:37 AM.Gandō Seiko
頑道清光
(Stubborn Way of Pure Light)
My street name is 'Al'.
Any words I write here are merely the thoughts of an apprentice priest, just my opinions, that's all.Comment
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I think we all come to practice for a reason - sometimes a deep need that we aren't even sure of, but we are here to get something. We want peace of mind or whatever it is. We want to escape. But this practice very quickly shows you your mind; so if you are stressed at the moment, you will see that with vivid clarity especially once your mind calms down. I think we are so used to chasing distractions to avoid what really troubles us (spoiler alert: death
).
I think the brilliance of zen practice is that it is low intensity as Jundo said so we don't get exposed to that prematurely. Also, it is not just a separate practice to get something. It's about giving something, and it comes with an entire framework of gratitude: zazen, precepts, the other practices (chanting, study, our lives through the lens of zazen) that are all big thank yous to everything. "Dropping likes and dislikes", "Faith in Mind". Accepting but, more than that, grateful for all of it... all of it
I think holding an attitude of gratitude in our hearts is zazen and that is a key ingredient to counter the existential horrors that we aren't necessarily used to thinking about. At the same time, mental illness is no small thing and anyone should seek professional help for that; more importantly, it is not a lack of character or sign of weakness. Sometimes we get diabetes, sometimes we get mental illness; we don't get to choose our "hobbies", but we should never feel guilty or "less than" because of any of this.
Anyhoo, that's it - happy friday
gassho
Risho
-stlah
PS apologies for wordiness and tangents lol - post morning zazen and your posts have inspired meLast edited by Risho; 03-19-2021, 12:49 PM.Email: risho.treeleaf@gmail.comComment
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美道 Bidou Beautiful Way
恩海 Onkai Merciful/Kind Ocean
I have a lot to learn; take anything I say that sounds like teaching with a grain of salt.Comment
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Thank you for this article. Over the last 5 years, I have ran workshops on breathing techniques and meditation to People with suicidal tendencies, anxiety patients, Corporate and PTSD patients. However, they were accompagnied by mental health specialists and meditation and breathing did help. There are extreme meditation techniques which can destabilize anyone. However, I believe the real problem is people viewing meditation as a solution while I view it as a mirror which shows things as they are. Anything in moderation, right?
Gassho,
Sat today,
Geerish.
Sent from my PAR-LX1M using TapatalkHas been known as Guish since 2017 on the forum here.Comment
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I seem to remember an article in Yoga Journal years ago that also warned of the dangers of meditation. If I remember correctly, those with the worst outcomes were those who were new to meditation and were trauma survivors.
I can remember when I was new to zazen, it sometimes felt like a physical act to detangle myself from my thoughts. With experience, of course, it's much easier for me to just watch thoughts come and go! I can easily imagine someone who had experienced trauma, new to meditation, deeply ensnared in whatever storyline going on in their head, feeling trapped on the cushion, and for whatever reason not realizing it's okay to stop. Perhaps it's the type of meditation, perhaps they're attempting meditation on their own with no supervision, perhaps poor instruction? Lots of possibilities.
Gassho,
Meredith
STComment
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I'm glad you brought this up, Onkai. It is important that a sangha discuss such matters with patience, understanding and compassion.
I would like to add that we should be cautious when generalizing all negative religious/spiritual/meditative experiences as being tied to preexisting conditions or previous trauma. I say this for two reasons, one being that we don't want to stigmatize someone's experience and cause an individual to hesitate to share their experience.
The second reason is that meditative practices can elicit a wide range of experiences. I say this less as someone who has had a variety of experiences on the cushion, but more from the perspective of someone who has a background in religious studies. For some, the experience of psychological dissolution (by this I mean a drop of water merging with ocean in which the "I" is extinguished) can be terrifying. I realize that for most practitioners these experiences can be small, incremental and enlightening (
), but they can cause distress in others.
I think that Jundo is right with his comparison to Zazen and a warm bath. Some of the worst instances of negative reactions/psychosis related to meditation practice often involve novice practitioners who engage in prolonged and intensive periods of practice. Which, in my belief, could cause any healthy, rational being to have a negative experience.
Thank you all for your posts.
Gassho,
Shade
STComment
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In the first story in the article where the woman was told once she started, she should not leave was a red flag for me. If Jundo started this year's Rohatsu with the warning that you better not to leave once started, I would decline and most likely leave Treeleaf. So I'm not sure how that is relatable to Treeleaf.
As others have said, this article relies on a lot of emotional hair raising stories so to make a point. If I have two mixed drinks, I will most likely get sick and regret it. So should this serve as a warning for everyone else, to be careful of having two drinks? Maybe.
Cannabis is now legally prescribed for anxiety in many US states but I know people who won't use it because it causes anxiety. I can't relate to anything in this article as the worst thing I ever experienced during zazen is maybe a little restlessness.
Gassho
stlah
ShokiComment
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Thank you, and you raise good points. As to the first point, you are correct, and there is no stigma meant or implied in any way for someone who has a medical/psychological condition or who has been a victim of trauma. I just don't know how to describe such situations without using those terms however, but no stigma was implied.
I would like to add that we should be cautious when generalizing all negative religious/spiritual/meditative experiences as being tied to preexisting conditions or previous trauma. I say this for two reasons, one being that we don't want to stigmatize someone's experience and cause an individual to hesitate to share their experience.
The second reason is that meditative practices can elicit a wide range of experiences. I say this less as someone who has had a variety of experiences on the cushion, but more from the perspective of someone who has a background in religious studies. For some, the experience of psychological dissolution (by this I mean a drop of water merging with ocean in which the "I" is extinguished) can be terrifying. I realize that for most practitioners these experiences can be small, incremental and enlightening (), but they can cause distress in others.
As to the second, what you say is true. However, if the person is cautioned to take a break or stop if they feel more disquiet or difficulty than they feel that they can handle, and to discuss it with their Zen teacher, then it should not be a serious event. I have had a relatively small number of people come to me sometimes who find the quiet or loss of "self" disturbing, but after we discuss it, they either go back later because it was just a passing moment, or they decide that Zazen is not for them. While there may be someone who is truly terrorized, I would imagine that it is rare. In fact, I would imagine that someone would be much more terrorized in their feelings by, for example, getting on a roller coaster at an amusement park heading for that first big drop, hearing a strange "bump in the night" in their house at midnight, or imagining "worst case scenarios" when going to a doctor's office for a test. Many things in life can cause fear. In fact, Zazen is a practice which helps us reduce fear in meeting those other situations in life (at least for me, as I could never set foot on a roller coaster until I began to practice Zazen, and likewise for my state of mind when I undergo medical tests! However, for a "Bump in the night," I still get under the bed, and send my wife out with a baseball bat. 
)
Sorry to run long in my words.
Gassho, J
STLahLast edited by Jundo; 03-24-2021, 12:35 AM.ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Jishin,
Yes, that's correct. It is illegal on the federal level. My state voted in favor of legalization in November and I can easily obtain it medically by telling my doctor I have anxiety (I have not, will not). The governor and the attorney general have advised all police departments to cease arrests for under 6 ounces as no further cases will be prosecuted. So I doubt the Feds are going to start making arrests.
But I'm not sure what this has to do with anything as this is all besides the point. I was just using anecdotal examples of how meditation, alcohol and cannabis get different reactions from different people.
Please, let's not get off track by starting a thing about the merits/benefits of weed. I'm not qualified and really not interested in the subject.
Sorry for being so verbose.
Gassho
STlah
ShokiLast edited by Shoki; 03-24-2021, 01:14 AM.Comment
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You make some good points, Jundo. You are right in your assertion that we are more likely to find stress and anxiety provoking episodes off the cushion. I have experienced firsthand how this practice can help us to confront and accept much of what we experience in life.Thank you, and you raise good points. As to the first point, you are correct, and there is no stigma meant or implied in any way for someone who has a medical/psychological condition or who has been a victim of trauma. I just don't know how to describe such situations without using those terms however, but no stigma was implied.
As to the second, what you say is true. However, if the person is cautioned to take a break or stop if they feel more disquiet or difficulty than they feel that they can handle, and to discuss it with their Zen teacher, then it should not be a serious event. I have had a relatively small number of people come to me sometimes who find the quiet or loss of "self" disturbing, but after we discuss it, they either go back later because it was just a passing moment, or they decide that Zazen is not for them. While there may be someone who is truly terrorized, I would imagine that it is rare. In fact, I would imagine that someone would be much more terrorized in their feelings by, for example, getting on a roller coaster at an amusement park heading for that first big drop, hearing a strange "bump in the night" in their house at midnight, or imagining "worst case scenarios" when going to a doctor's office for a test. Many things in life can cause fear. In fact, Zazen is a practice which helps us reduce fear in meeting those other situations in life (at least for me, as I could never set foot on a roller coaster until I began to practice Zazen, and likewise for my state of mind when I undergo medical tests! However, for a "Bump in the night," I still get under the bed, and send my wife out with a baseball bat. )
Sorry to run long in my words.
Gassho, J
STLah
I also like your emphasis on the importance of speaking with a Zen teacher if such experiences occur. Having a supportive Sangha is important, and for this reason I am thankful to have found Treeleaf!
Regarding the everyday terrors, I also experience awful situations in life. Specifically, spiders. I don't like spiders, and I don't know if there is enough timeless Zazen to change my opinion on that (although I hope there is!). As a result, I rely on my wife to rid the house of all unwanted arachnids.
Gassho,
Shade
STComment
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More than once, I have had a spider crawl across me during Zazen. I either keep sitting, and let it go on its way, or offer it a little assistance to go on its way ... with a Gassho.
Regarding the everyday terrors, I also experience awful situations in life. Specifically, spiders. I don't like spiders, and I don't know if there is enough timeless Zazen to change my opinion on that (although I hope there is!). As a result, I rely on my wife to rid the house of all unwanted arachnids.
dlt spider.jpg
Gassho, J
STLahALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Several weeks ago during a Zazenkai I was beset by mosquitoes... they must have come in on the firewood! I felt like the Dalai Lama in the mosquito video. Like him, I got bit once and then was swatting afterwards, Zazen or no, I am allergic and swell up like a balloon from them...
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH
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