Zen + Sports = ????

[Jinho]

Re: Zen + Sports = ????

Hi,

I am, I think one of the few people who have no feeling for sports. It makes me sad because there are winners and losers, and my little heart wants a game where everybody wins. I grew up being taken to such games, they are called plays and ballet and opera and concerts. I did once go to a baseball game (in an effort to "bond" with the woman I was dating at that time) and I realized it was the first time I had been to a spectator event where they didn't know what would happen (not much did happen and when it did I cheered, but everyone looked daggers at me and I realized i had cheered for the visiting team) . I have watched a little bit of various sports, but the physical skill level is so much rougher and clumsier than ballet I don't see what the fuss is about. But the Harlem Globetrotters are great (are they still going?)

I remember when the press was moaning that Olga Korbut (the great gymnast) was no longer number one, she was only number three, how sad, how the mighty have fallen. And I thought, WAIT A MINUTE, she is one of the THREE GREATEST GYMNASTS IN THE WORLD!

And people vehemently assert that life is about winners and losers. But it really isn't. Our life is 99% about very close and detailed cooperation and coordination. The cooperation and coordination it takes for me to get to work and how everyone at my work coordinates making it all happen. How we get our food, housing, water, sewage, transport, everything is about cooperation and coordination. And when it goes well, everybody (well, a lot of people) win.

I am not saying sports is a bad thing, it obviously fulfills some need since it is so popular. And perhaps it keeps people from doing bad things.

as usual,
rowan

[Tb]

Re: Zen + Sports = ????

Hi.

You should not separate things in hot and cold.
They're winners and losers and losers and winners.
all at the same time.

May the force be with you
Tb

[AlanLa]

Re: Zen + Sports = ????

I am not a hockey fan. I have tried, but it just doesn't work for me. BUT after reading all the postings, I think hockey should be the designated Treeleaf Sport. Like baseball is America's pastime, so should hockey be the treeleaf pastime.

[chicanobudista]

Re: Zen + Sports = ????

Hi,

I am, I think one of the few people who have no feeling for sports. It makes me sad because there are winners and losers, and my little heart wants a game where everybody wins.

In futbol/football, sometimes: No winners. No loosers. Tie. :mrgreen: Vamos Cruz Azul!

[Keishin]

Re: Zen + Sports = ????

Alan!
No need to designate any particular sport as being 'treeleaf's official sport.'
The only reason I write about hockey is because hockey is the only sport I've ever been really REALLY exposed to, and the only reason I allowed myself that kind of exposure was that it intrigued me.
Think about--really, all sport/play is like this:
you start with emptiness, a special kind of emptiness: a basketball court, a tennis court, a soccer field, a lacrosse field, a football field, a hockey rink. Ok, you construct the 'special emptiness' of rink, the court, the field. Then you set up lines and markers and rules about how to conduct passage from one end to the other, rules for the movement of people and rules for the movement of the object--the ball, the hot potato.
This object is only valuable by its temporary possession, by it's movement into areas where it becomes more and more difficult to take it.

The fact that this can not be done alone, but is done in concert with a group of players in action simultaneously with an equal and opposite group of players. Without these two simultaneous pressures of direction, no game is possible. **
(This is very different from a race--where all flow is in the same direction and it is a case of endurance, and timing, pacing.)

I have to say I am surprised more folks haven't written about their own love of a sport. Or, forget team sports--any activity they have a passionate feeling for. Love after all is interest.


(I still haven't sat down and addressed fighting in hockey yet...it's the hardest aspect of the sport for me...but I will, promise!)



**I heard about this amazing 'super games' being played by 4 teams at one time--it was set up so that two basketball teams and two soccer teams were playing on an indoor basketball court with soccer goals underneath the basketball hoops. I read about this--somewhere in San Diego several of these teams got together. As memory serves me (not always well these days), I believe it was not only two teams for two different sports, but I also think there was a cultural duality being played out as well: that one team was American high school students and one was Mexican high school students. At any rate it fascinated me, the combination of all these things, and I would very much have liked to have seen it in motion!


I just looked it up: Gustavo Artigas is the performance/artist who 'invented'/coordinated it. I just glanced quickly at a write up of his work (wow!)
at : http://kunstenfestivaldesarts.be/en/2003/stc/stl23.html. (I don't know how to make this a hot link, sorry!)



I

[AlanLa]

Re: Zen + Sports = ????

This is just beautiful...

all sport/play is like this:
you start with emptiness, a special kind of emptiness: a basketball court, a tennis court, a soccer field, a lacrosse field, a football field, a hockey rink. Ok, you construct the 'special emptiness' of rink, the court, the field. Then you set up lines and markers and rules about how to conduct passage from one end to the other, rules for the movement of people and rules for the movement of the object--the ball, the hot potato.
This object is only valuable by its temporary possession, by it's movement into areas where it becomes more and more difficult to take it.

The fact that this can not be done alone, but is done in concert with a group of players in action simultaneously with an equal and opposite group of players. Without these two simultaneous pressures of direction, no game is possible. **
(This is very different from a race--where all flow is in the same direction and it is a case of endurance, and timing, pacing.)

[Keishin]

Re: Zen + Sports = ????

I promised I would write about hockey and fighting and I haven't done that yet. Grab a soda, here goes:

There is a joke told by the "I don't get no respect" comedian (whose name I can't remember).
It goes like this: "I went to the fights last night and a hockey game broke out!"

Some games feel like that.

When I first started going to professional games NHL and IHL level (the only place in the various levels of hockey I've watched where I've seen fighting occur). I found it impossible to comprehend. It horrified and shocked me. It didn't happen often enough to turn me off of the game of hockey, and as I came to understand a bit more of what was going on, some of it actually makes sense--but understand I'm a woman writing about a very male aspect of a very male sport--so I'll do my best to convey the understanding I've come to from my perspective. To tell you the truth, this is the first time I've ever tried to discuss this aspect of the game.

The game itself is very fast--skaters travel at 35 mph or better, the puck can get up to 90, 100 mph. The players are only on the ice for very brief periods of time (usually a minute and a half or so): there is a constant flow of players coming on and off the ice. In fact, to really see this, you need to sit either just above the players benches or high enough opposite them so you can see this part of the game. Usually the puck is such a distraction, you miss what is happening at the benches. But the referee and linesmen are watching and there is a penalty called 'too many men on the ice,' this is when players have jumped on to the ice before the players they are replacing have come off, and when a player coming on ice has entered the game before a replaced player has gotten off the ice. (it is one of my favorite penalties because when they announce it "Two minute penalty: too many men on the ice," I always want to yell "Yeah, and not enough women!", but I don't, I just enjoy thinking it). Not only do fans usually miss the phenomena of flow of players on and off, but so much else is missed. We fans try to follow the movement of the puck. But where the puck is is only one tiny part of the rink: on the rest of the ice, a whole lot of other stuff is happening, and a lot of it isn't very pretty: players push the edge of what might be considered fair play and get into exchanges which are questionable to the point of outright infraction. Not all of these are detected by the refs. Sometimes refs are not consistent in what they call. Players will absorb some of this, but if it goes beyond a certain point (?) fighting will happen. (Parents of households with more than one child can appeciate this phenomenon of 'unfair' calls--and the 'behind the scenes' scuffles to 'equalize' the perceived/actual unfairness).
This partially explains fighting. The other side is the sheer spectacle of it: Fighting on the ice takes tremendous talent--it's another skill set--believe it or not, it is extremely difficult to stand up on the ice and throw punches--they make it look like it's easy--fighting on the ice is taking what has been happening behind the play and moving it front and center--bringing it forward and airing it out. Obviously it stops the game, while this other game within the game, or rather this other sport withing the game takes place.
TV really doesn't capture this.
In person, you don't always see what leads up to it. But at least when you are at the rink, you see the reaction of all the other players. Many times the fight is for them. The central message being 'you and your guys won't be allowed to take liberties with us (our skill players) or you'll pay a price for it--and I'm willing to put my own body on the line and take penalties for it--. In other words 'I'm willing to stand up for what's right by doing something I will be penalized for.'
The fact is without any malicious intent-- incidental contact, inadvertent high sticks, etc,-- can lead to injuries, despite all the new generations of equipment. Just playing the game you can get hurt, so anytime there is the sense of deliberate attempt to cause injury, and refs do not catch the infraction (intentions may not be so obvious), someone (designated 'someones' are the enforcers) will step up to 'send a signal.' In otherwords: "if you don't want to play HOCKEY, then let's fight, and let's be real clear that that is what we are doing out here."
There is a whole set of etiquette about who fights whom, and when 'they drop the gloves' can be strategic (because it means both players will end up off the ice for a minimum of 5 minutes each.)
Sometimes players coming up from the farm team will want management to see they've got what it takes for the 'big time' and act so that a well executed fight will help get them their position.
I had season tickets for the Long Beach ICE DOGS (no longer around), and there were many games without fights. I did notice that televised games had fighting in them, so I wondered if somehow that was playing a part.

I have to say my preference is to watch a game free of fighting even when I 'get' why it's happening. The All Stars game is especially fun to watch because all of the players are voted for and it honors them all. The game they play is more a display game, and so they are all playing for the fun of it. Obviously there would be no fighting.


So why is there fighting in hockey?
Because it serves a purpose and because they can (it is allowed).

So to understand this is to ask the question what is the purpose served,
and why is this allowed?

Why is there fighting in hockey? is the hockey koan

[FeMonky]

Re: Zen + Sports = ????

Zen Fanaticism? what a novel concept.
So, what we're saying is that when I am dismayed when The Chiefs get a first round draft pick for being absolutely awful, I should be in the moment of dismay?

[Keishin]

Re: Zen + Sports = ????

FeMonkey!
Tell me more....
I only know some about the flower of hockey, I don't know it's stems and leaves and roots---I know nothing about the business end, nothing about draft pick and waivers and free agents. I don't know how the trade system works, or how the new salary cap effects things. I have heard these terms, but know nothing. I just know guys get sent up, sent down and get traded. I've heard it can happen that a player arrives in town on a road trip with the team and can be traded and end up suiting up for the opposite team, now their 'new home.'
Please tell me about this other level of the game. This is still uncharted water (or should I say 'ice'?) for me.

[chessie]

Re: Zen + Sports = ????

Hello sports fans! I’ve had feelings of resonance at SO many points in this discussion that I’m not sure where to begin. My husband got me hooked on hockey (yes, another rabid hockey fan!). We had season tickets to the Washington Capitals for many years until prices got too high and then we moved too far away. We traveled to the USSR with the team in 1989 for their pre-season games. So, that being said…

Alan—I can relate to the Cubs comparison. The Caps were a lousy team for a long time. Even with sparks of talent throughout the years, they didn’t have much results until fairly recently.

Quote: What about right thought to that million dollar player that just went 0 for the series?
Yes, just like getting Jaromir Jagr, a HUGE star at the time, only to have him decide he didn’t want to play for us, and in effect sat on his bum (figuratively), leaving us hog-tied to a huge salary liability for years after he vacated the premises!

Keishin: (Quote) I came to the world of sports (which exclusively includes hockey, hockey and hockey), at age 47.
Prior to that, sports==(all of them--including hockey) did not exist for me.
I knew that other people liked them, but, for the life of me, couldn't see why.

Exactly the same for me, although I think I started a little earlier, somewhere in my 30’s. I also, eventually, learned to like NASCAR, but that’s another story entirely.

Alan:
I think playing a sport is different that being a spectator. Having played a sport also, I think, makes you a different kind of spectator, even more involved and attached, or so has been my observation.

Absolutely concur. I played in symphonies for many years, and to this day that affects how I listen to classical music. On the other hand, I listen to rock music as a ‘pure spectator’. My husband and I compare notes on what we hear in a piece, and how we hear it—it’s always different. This is like reading Zen books in a vacuum, and reading them AFTER doing zazen—they read differently, don’t they? Which is not to say that we can’t fully enjoy aspects of life as a spectator—after all, we can’t all DO everything, but I think we can enjoy everything if we so choose to. The nice thing about Zen is that, indeed (I think—I’m suspect of generalities but this rings true for me) , we can all SIT!

Keishin: Ah, hockey, I forget everything, the rest of the world disappears and there is only the rink, the beautiful ice, and the sounds of skates and the puck...

Isn’t this the perfect analogy for mindfulness? That of being totally focused on the here, now, what, and OH NO (or OH YEAH) ?
It took me a long long time to come to terms with fighting in hockey, I'm still coming to terms with it, I'll always be coming to terms with it: I don't like it, but there it is...sometimes I understand why it happens, other times I have no clue.

Funny, that. I never had a problem with this aspect of hockey. I see it in several facets. Most good novels we enjoy due to the complexity generated by ‘sub-plots’, right? Well, fighting is a sub-plot to the game. I’ve seen many more dangerous injuries from pucks, blades and players being slammed into the boards than EVER seen in a fight, so that doesn’t play into things. I have also seen a good fight totally change the tone and direction of a game. These guys are called ‘role-players’. Well, in ANY group of people, don’t we get to know everyone, and tend to (sometimes even while trying not to) label them by their role (either by function of their actions or personality)? These guys fill a good purpose as part of the game, as far as I think. ALSO—the fights bring out very human emotions. Isn’t part of Zen learning to observe what is actually REAL, what is actually going on inside and why? Well, loyalty, protection, revenge, passion—all of these come out in the fight itself, or in the aftermath of the game. It’s like all of the game itself in microcosm. Sometimes. Other times they just take a couple swings and miss and fall down and it’s ‘poof’. So, even with the emotion of feeling deflated—that shows up too.

Ros: but the physical skill level is so much rougher and clumsier than ballet.

I ardently disagree, but in the end, it’s a matter of perspective. A ‘no-look’ pinpoint pass across the ice while skating backwards---nothing is more amazing to me in the skill and grace in certain moments of the game. And, in Zen we also deal a LOT with perspective—I think it’s fundamental—we learn HOW to see, and often from vantage points we would never come to any other way. And, on the other hand, people outside this tradition see Zen as a ‘do nothing’ practise, which it is in a way, but not how they mean it. Life is all about perspective.

IronMonkey: dismayed when The Chiefs get a first round draft pick for being absolutely awful, I should be in the moment of dismay?

I point to the multi-levels that sports, once again, bring to a single moment of time! Dismay, yes, since our team was so poor as to even been in that position. But also, hopeful—that the draft pick can be the start of a new era. And, rejoice in the added opportunity to practice patience, since ‘re-building’ can last, what, a decade or so??!! (from one who is just now seeing the fruits of what seemed like an eternity rebuild).

Keishin—in brief, the team with the worst record at the end of the season gets the first draft pick, and can get first shot at the best available potential talent. This can even get so bad as to result in suspicions or accusations that teams have purposely lost games at the end of the season to guarantee getting that first round pick (not my team, of course! :P ).

A final note--I deeply appreciate the international flavor that hockey has. A 'sports sangha' that crosses over many barriers, language, culture, and even playing style. And no other sport has stories (at least I don't know of them) where people risk their lives and leave their families to sneak out of one country to go play in another country.

Thanks for a most enjoyable thread. Gassho, Ann

[aikoku tora]

Re: Zen + Sports = ????

Awwh Zen and Hockey.. always has been an interesting thing in my life..

I've played Hockey for countless years now... in that 2 min shift it's hard to really be clear on anything going on in the chambers of ones mind..

Hockey fans/parents will understand this.. as will those who follow footy (soccer) as the set up is the same.. but I'll clear up some things.

I play as a main line Left wing, and am the team sniper ( basically meaning pretty much every shot I take is on goal, regardless of where I shoot from, or how...and good at picking out a weak point in a goalie...mind you ' on goal' does not mean scoring so much is Im atleast hitting it in the right direction ) :P

what comes with that position is that I become a target, hit against the boards, leveled in open ice, the line between " stop me from making a shot, and injure me for the game" becomes blurred. And I admit, when I know someone lowered a shoulder and basically flipped me over with the intent to hurt me rather than disrupt my progress it's always tough to let it go, more so when you know you have 80+ minutes of that ahead of you to endure... I had the luxury of being able to fall back on my martial arts training, Kendo/jujitsu teaching the focus on shutting things out, but even then it's very hard to find that moment of mental clarity. Closest to a " zen" approach I've found playing is to just remove myself to some degree, and when that fails...throwing down the gloves will always get me atleast five minutes to just sit :twisted: ( I admit though, I have only instigated 2 fights ever, and when I do get swung at, I almost never retaliated, or I try to just hold him, so the ref can actually separate us safely.....not a boy scout, but pretty close)



and Keishin, just for you, when mentioning the speed of a puck.... One tender of ours took a 136.5 mph slapshot to the face mask, and though the puck itself never touched him....the shock wave from it hitting the mask still knocked him out, and gave him a mild concussion. ( I never shoot at that speed, I prefer the wrist or backhand shots, more control comes with the loss of power behind the shot, and in my book I prefer the control)

it's easy to forget that while made of hard rubber, the pucks are also kept frozen prior to use, making them basically round bricks.

[Keishin]

Re: Zen + Sports = ????

Hey, FeMonkey...
It just dawned on me (Yes, it's taken me this long), to wonder if you were talking about The Charlestown Chiefs of SLAPSHOT fame, or others...
A silly movie with Paul Newman--he credits it (so I've read) as being the most fun he ever had making a film.

[Shohei]

Re: Zen + Sports = ????

East coast Canadian here, and as such I think I'm supposed to be, at the very least, a rabidly avid hockey fan.

(like this guy: click it ;Dhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZWxErEbQkY[/video]])
if you need more info on Dr. Stoppin' Tom Connors, PhD:Check here

Truth is im not a hockey fan or really any sports fan in the sense of following a team/player/athlete, I'd rather play it then watch it - Heh but I don't know the rules .

Always faced with "Hey you see the game?" and I Never know what they are talking about and i feel like a bit of tool. kinda similar to my practice :S All said and done though... I have really enjoyed reading (spectating?) this thread just the same!

Gassho, Dirk

[sarushin]

Re: Zen + Sports = ????

Hi all,

I don't know much about hockey, but I do feel there is an awareness with endurance sports. I do triathlons and there is a lot of time for introspection during training and total concentration during races. I am constantly practicing even the little things to make sure I get them right in a race. Even buckling the chin strap on your helmet can become a problem if one is not focused. I'm always focused on how my body feels and how much pain I'm in, if my form is correct, if it's time to eat or drink, and any issues that might come up be it mechanical or course derived. Before an event I try to remain as calm and unattached as possible so I don't freak myself out. In training I try to keep my mind focused on what's going on but I do work a lot of things out at the same time, it's kinda like therapy. When you're on a bike for 4-6hrs all sorts of things come out. To me endurance sports really strip away all the fluff of life and you get to a lot of truths. You find out the best and worst in people and yourself. Being out, pushing yourself physically is like when I'm on my zafu, there's no where else to go and I have to face the reality of now; whether it's hitting a steep hill at mile 18 of a run or wrestling with my ego in zazen. Speaking of ego, it always seems to get slapped down, I'll start thinking I'm pretty good and then I get injured, passed by a female, or put my helmet on backwards. Nearly every person in endurance sports (triathlon, marathon, ultra marathons, etc.), when asked about it's effect on their life, will answer in spiritual terms. There are points reached (like Dharma gates) where we have to have the inner will and strength to push through and beyond, then the view of our training and the world is transformed. That's my zen of sport, I hope it helps.

Alan

[AlanLa]

Re: Zen + Sports = ????

I have decided to recycle this thread instead of starting a new one, because 1 year after starting this thread the issue remains about the same.

This is my koan: How can I be a Cubs fan? People ask me this and I have no reasonable answer. A quick refresher for those that don't know. The Chicago Cubs are a professional baseball team that has not won the championship in 100 years. Yes, a whole century of futility. Most of that century (the part of it when I have been alive) they were just plain awful. The past few years they have been good enough to fail in a spectacular fashion, going 0 for their last 9 playoff games.

How I can be a fan of a team that continuously breaks my heart is beyond logic, beyond understanding. I think I have a better chance of realizing my original face than understanding how I could be a Cubs fan. Maybe they are the same thing. Being a Cubs fan can only be experienced; yet it is beyond experience, beyond words. It just is, and I accept it, I embrace it... but there is still no relief.

Here is where I now sit on this: The Cubs are not really dukka anymore for me, because that would mean that I had expectations of them that were not being met. All that's left over in my fandom after all these years is very little hope and even fewer expectations. By that definition, there's not much dukka there anymore, yet still I suffer. So I have boiled it down to this: I am happy when they win, and I am sad when they lose. That's all I got.

Is this any way to live?