Does Shikantaza equal full trust in life itself?

[Jakuden]

Oh my, I am not a fan of heights, those pictures really drive home the message here!!

In Mumon’s The Gateless Gate, Case 46, Master Sekiso says, “From the top of a pole one hundred feet high, how do you step forward?” Another ancient master, Mumon, tells us, “One sitting at the top of a pole, one hundred feet high, even if he has attained it, has not yet been truly enlightened. He must step forward from the top of the pole one hundred feet high and manifest his whole body in the ten directions.”

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Shonin]

Jakuden, I am trying to understand the quote. Is this to say that we have to drop all attachments even to life itself to be fully realized in this life? If so it reminds me of the experience that made me seek the Dharma in the first place.
I have been meditating in various methods since I was 14(44 now) off and on mostly off. One day I was meditating and dropped all attachments for a brief moment.
No thought of whether i lost my partner at the time. No thought to whether I had a job or not, or having food and clothing. And I believe I caught a glimpse for an hour or two of things as they are. It was like everything flowing in and out of myself simultaneously. Touching all things in the Universe and being touched back all at once. I felt a strange liberation, nothing but love and compassion for all including the tiniest particles of existence.
But to reach that point I had to really not care about anything. Dropping all thoughts as I understand it. I've felt this only 3 times in my life. And when i read that quote that's what it reminded me of. Whether it happens again or not I don't know and have stopped trying to recreate it. I just sit ( and feel the sunshine pouring in lately that I mentioned in the other thread, but this was beyond that). I learned not to be attached to such things but it was a hard lesson.
Am curious as to anyone's input but yours specifically too since I was prompted by your post.

Dave SAT/LAH

Sorry this is more than three sentences

[Jundo]

Jakuden, I am trying to understand the quote. Is this to say that we have to drop all attachments even to life itself to be fully realized in this life? If so it reminds me of the experience that made me seek the Dharma in the first place.
I have been meditating in various methods since I was 14(44 now) off and on mostly off. One day I was meditating and dropped all attachments for a brief moment.
No thought of whether i lost my partner at the time. No thought to whether I had a job or not, or having food and clothing. And I believe I caught a glimpse for an hour or two of things as they are. It was like everything flowing in and out of myself simultaneously. Touching all things in the Universe and being touched back all at once. I felt a strange liberation, nothing but love and compassion for all including the tiniest particles of existence.
But to reach that point I had to really not care about anything. Dropping all thoughts as I understand it. I've felt this only 3 times in my life. And when i read that quote that's what it reminded me of. Whether it happens again or not I don't know and have stopped trying to recreate it. I just sit ( and feel the sunshine pouring in lately that I mentioned in the other thread, but this was beyond that). I learned not to be attached to such things but it was a hard lesson.
Am curious as to anyone's input but yours specifically too since I was prompted by your post.

Dave SAT/LAH

Sorry this is more than three sentences

Hi Shonin.

I'll offer my own impression. If we really were completely unattached to life, completely without fear, really okay with jumping off a 100 foot pole without net or bungie cord ... one would die, smoosh, kaput! We need some fear, attachment to life and body (and some common sense) not to do so. Even the Buddha did not go walking off cliffs! (I know that there are actually people who have brains that don't register fear like the rest of us are hard-wired to do by millions of years of evolution, and they literally do step off cliffs ... )

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?18306-Fear-The-Rock-Climber-s-Amygdala

However, the experience you had, however briefly, is something to cherish and learn from. On the other hand, to be that way all the time is not the point of this practice.

Instead, I always recommend something which is the best of both worlds, as one world ... finding fearless fear, fear that is fearless, death without death, unattached attachments ... which we Zen folks might call "non-fear, non-death, non-attachment" ...

I wrote about this a little in my book ... in fact, I wrote it exactly 3 years ago this month ...

I am writing this some weeks after receiving an esophageal and stomach cancer diagnosis. The doctors are optimistic, but they won’t know the real prognosis until they do surgery a few days from now. Like many twists and turns in life, this news came as quite a surprise to me. In general, I’m doing okay with it, but I am also afraid sometimes, as we humans often are when faced with our mortality. I don’t want to pretend that I am some kind of hero who is beyond all fear. I am not. I’m a complete Zen coward! I believe that some level of fear is hardwired into the deepest parts of our brains, and it awakens when we ponder our own sickness and death.

But that’s okay, because it’s not the end of the story.

Another part of me is beyond all fear. I mean that. Part of me is afraid but part of me is not afraid at all. It’s the part of me that is wonderfully beyond “me,” beyond all fear of death—an aspect of my being that is fine with whatever happens. The part of me that knows there is no place to fall to and that does not believe in death in the usual way we think about it. I feel content, even though I am also worried about my upcoming surgery. There are serious risks, and the operation might not work. I want to get the cancer out, but the treatment is painful and without guarantees. I am afraid, and sometimes the fear makes me sweat from head to toe. I realize I may not be here in a year or two, or even months from now. I may not be here tomorrow. What will become of my family? I miss my kids, my wife, the cat. Who will teach my daughter to ride a bike, or show my son how to shave? Sometimes the loneliness I feel makes me cry at night.

At the same time, I am beyond all fear, and there is not the least resistance to death in my heart. Through Zen practice, I stopped being concerned about death a long time ago. If death comes, let it come. Whatever happens, I’m willing to dive right in. Thus, I am content to be here in this hospital room. All is as it should be and I overflow with joy. An amazing aspect of Zen, the essence of the wisdom and compassion at its very center, is that it allows all such feelings to be true at once, each in its own way. Each perspective has its place, and there is not the least bit of conflict among ideas and emotions that at first appear to be contradictory.

I would like to tell you where this strength comes from—it comes from zazen and Dōgen’s way of shikantaza. These are my source of courage today.

Sorry to run long.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Bion]

Hi Shonin.

I'll offer my own impression. If we really were completely unattached to life, completely without fear, really okay with jumping off a 100 foot pole without net or bungie cord ... one would die, smoosh, kaput! We need some fear, attachment to life and body (and some common sense) not to do so. Even the Buddha did not go walking off cliffs! (I know that there are actually people who have brains that don't register fear like the rest of us are hard-wired to do by millions of years of evolution, and they literally do step off cliffs ... )

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?18306-Fear-The-Rock-Climber-s-Amygdala

However, the experience you had, however briefly, is something to cherish and learn from. On the other hand, to be that way all the time is not the point of this practice.

Instead, I always recommend something which is the best of both worlds, as one world ... finding fearless fear, fear that is fearless, death without death, unattached attachments ... which we Zen folks might call "non-fear, non-death, non-attachment" ...

I wrote about this a little in my book ... in fact, I wrote it exactly 3 years ago this month ...



Sorry to run long.

Gassho, J

stlah

Yeah, losing respect and appreciation for life, existence and this particular form of it is not exactly the point of Zen or Buddhism in general. We can cherish the life and body we have and protect them from obvious harm, as much as we can, yet not cling to them and live in dread of being touched by what is out of our control.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Shonin]

TY for clarifying , Roshi.

Jake, maybe I didnt explain clearly.I struggle to find the right wording when I mention it. I was okay with death but not looking to die ..more of an "If it happens it happens and I accept it". I was not in the mind to say jump in front of a car. Or step off the 100 ft. poll as it were. It wasn't apathy it was acceptance.

But it was an occurrence I have always been curious about. Was a life changing experience. I did cling to it for many years trying to recreate it( this was pre-Buddhism in my life).

Dave SAT/LAH

[Jakuden]

Jakuden, I am trying to understand the quote. Is this to say that we have to drop all attachments even to life itself to be fully realized in this life? If so it reminds me of the experience that made me seek the Dharma in the first place.
I have been meditating in various methods since I was 14(44 now) off and on mostly off. One day I was meditating and dropped all attachments for a brief moment.
No thought of whether i lost my partner at the time. No thought to whether I had a job or not, or having food and clothing. And I believe I caught a glimpse for an hour or two of things as they are. It was like everything flowing in and out of myself simultaneously. Touching all things in the Universe and being touched back all at once. I felt a strange liberation, nothing but love and compassion for all including the tiniest particles of existence.
But to reach that point I had to really not care about anything. Dropping all thoughts as I understand it. I've felt this only 3 times in my life. And when i read that quote that's what it reminded me of. Whether it happens again or not I don't know and have stopped trying to recreate it. I just sit ( and feel the sunshine pouring in lately that I mentioned in the other thread, but this was beyond that). I learned not to be attached to such things but it was a hard lesson.
Am curious as to anyone's input but yours specifically too since I was prompted by your post.

Dave SAT/LAH

Sorry this is more than three sentences

As with most Koans, I think there is more than one way to view the quote. As Jundo has said, it is probably not good to literally drop the attachment to living to the extent that we step off a 100-foot cliff! I think it was your question about "deep trust in the way things are" that brought the Koan to my mind. I get from this Koan that we can sit on our hundred-foot pole, preach the Dharma from it, comfortably do all the motions of our practice, but can we really take that step into the unknown, leave our safe place, and trust that the Dharma will hold up? I also remember reading some of Joko Beck's writings, where she presented some pretty tough questions for the reader about what situations are particularly feared and whether we could "walk the razors edge" and accept those things.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Shonin]

Ty Jakuden. Yes i think that's a much more succinct way of sayin what i was thinking. Leaping into the unknown. I just prattled on about examples and i think my point got lost. LOL

Dave SAT/LAH

[Tom A.]

Deep bows Jundo, such inspiring advice and images. Thank you.

Would love to listen to other stories from Sangha members, I find this to be a fascinating and fundamental topic.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

My experience from Jundo’s teachings, sitting, and pondering my sittings, is that Shikantaza is a trust and a radical acceptance (and yet is more than “radical acceptance,” the words I choose don’t do it justice). It’s a trust and acceptance that everything is whole and complete before, during and after I do or don’t do anything, whatever happens, nothing will tear a hole in this wholeness and completeness (in fact, it’s so whole and complete that if a hole were to be torn into this wholeness and completeness, then that itself would be the wholeness and completeness). There is nothing to do or not do to make things whole and complete. The way I sometimes think of it is that Zazen is a yoga posture held for and extended period of time embodying and reflecting the whole complete universe in every time and place. But this is all ultimately beyond words and logic to me and probably better left unspoken. The words trust and acceptance don’t do justice to what is reflected in my sitting. Maybe someone else can explain it with words and logic?

The closest I’ve seen anyone get to this wholeness in practical down to earth terms is through phrases like “the dharma is good yesterday, good today, good tomorrow” and when Jundo says things like “Non-problem problems” or “every bad day is a good day” or “its like a tear rolling down the face and a smile at the same time.” Etc.. etc...

The puzzle piece that I didn’t get, that clicked once I did get it, was when I asked Jundo “What is this ‘Great Doubt’ that I keep reading about?” And his answer was along the lines of “Great Doubt? That’s a Rinzai thing. We have Great Trust/Faith in Soto Zen that everything is whole and complete.”

(This is more than three sentences, I apologize.)

Gassho,
Tom
Sat/Lah

[Tai Shi]

The mere mention of death brings places in to perspective one's fear. Is it necessary to discus that which is natural? I have some fear that pain will rise above 10; goodness I hope there is nothing stronger than bones, C3C4 and Jaw bones ripped through face and neck by truck speeding from dead stop at 60 mph with rope connected to bones. This I have felt and wept. May there be some relief with numbing narcotics? I watched my mother die of cancer while hooked to morphine. All I could do was watch her as she was vegetable. Would my pain dissipate from days I had of withdrawal from Oxycodone.
Gassho
sat / lah
Tai Shi

[Jundo]

The mere mention of death brings places in to perspective one's fear. Is it necessary to discus that which is natural? I have some fear that pain will rise above 10; goodness I hope there is nothing stronger than bones, C3C4 and Jaw bones ripped through face and neck by truck speeding from dead stop at 60 mph with rope connected to bones. This I have felt and wept. May there be some relief with numbing narcotics? I watched my mother die of cancer while hooked to morphine. All I could do was watch her as she was vegetable. Would my pain dissipate from days I had of withdrawal from Oxycodone.
Gassho
sat / lah
Tai Shi

We trust and experience that there is a face of the world beyond this body and its pains. Nonetheless, this body does suffer so much sometimes.

I will sit Zazen tonight in memory of your mother, Taishi.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tai Shi]

Does Shikantaza equal full trust in life itself?

As alway or often, Jundo, your comment brings me to tears for my mother, or is I’m mother who still brings me to tears when my memory looks down at what once was. Marjorie echos another person, “Be here now!” And, now I’m listening to what was. The Silk Road.
Gassho
sat/ lah
Tai Shi


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[Suuko]

So far, Shikantaza is being revolutionary for me, because it is the only "thing" in which I just let everything be, just as it is, as a mirror that reflects whatever arises.

Could Shikantaza be the equivalent of deep trust in things as they are? Is there an equivalent in Zen to this deep trust in life? It's as if the more I search for this trust, the less trust I put in life itself. And when I JUST SIT, then it's as if all of life became fundamentally OK. Thank you.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat

Thanks for starting this discussion. I have gone through the posts and they have been so insightful. Last June, I had surgery. After the operation, I laid on the bed and had palpitations during the night. Eventually, at one point, I stopped the fight and just stayed with the situation. It wasn't giving up. It was accepting things as they are and found peace in it. In a way, you could say, I trusted life and surrendered to it as in Zazen.

Gassho,
Sat today,
Geerish.

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[Jundo]

Thanks for starting this discussion. I have gone through the posts and they have been so insightful. Last June, I had surgery. After the operation, I laid on the bed and had palpitations during the night. Eventually, at one point, I stopped the fight and just stayed with the situation. It wasn't giving up. It was accepting things as they are and found peace in it. In a way, you could say, I trusted life and surrendered to it as in Zazen.

Gassho,
Sat today,
Geerish.

That's it! Good hospital bed Zazen!

[Suuko]

That's it! Good hospital bed Zazen!

I learnt it from you.

Gassho,
Geerish.

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[Tai Shi]

Dear Jundo,
I think of you often. At one time I was a big man. I was 270 lbs, 5’8” and that was with my clothes on. I now am 190 lbs, 5’61/2” the AS taken it’s toll on my body. You know that, but Jundo I just want to thank you for being so tender about my mother. Who knows? I might go that way myself. We all have our March of Bhutan, no winners there. Well, thank you.
Gassho
Tai Shi


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