Fatalism vs acceptance in Zazen

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  • Chet
    Member
    • Apr 2019
    • 21

    #16
    Foyan said that without the right view, Zen practice will seem bitter.

    Because Zen is quite bare in some respects, I think there’s a tendency to equate Zen with asceticism. Certainly Sesshin can seem that way (I’ve never made it more than a day, though perhaps less. Maybe if I could have endured, I’d have worn away the bitter.)

    I think with one mind, zazen can be seen as asceticism. With another, it might be seen as athleticism. Agony? Boredom? Fatalism?

    Right view isn’t just one long, uncaring, grey day—except when it is.

    Something that’s helped me because I’m mentally ill, is to try to examine the movements of mind and not thoroughly rely on them. But the ground in which the mind moves—what’s that? Is it even possible for that to be inconsistent? The painting might be a riot of color, but what about the wall, just outside the frame, against which the painting has been hung?

    Fatalism seems too dead, too settled and certain of itself to be Zen.

    Chet

    Sat Today (don’t know what the other thing means. Ihn? Something like that? IAH?)

    Comment

    • Inshin
      Member
      • Jul 2020
      • 557

      #17
      Originally posted by Chet
      Foyan said that without the right view, Zen practice will seem bitter.

      Because Zen is quite bare in some respects, I think there’s a tendency to equate Zen with asceticism. Certainly Sesshin can seem that way (I’ve never made it more than a day, though perhaps less. Maybe if I could have endured, I’d have worn away the bitter.)

      I think with one mind, zazen can be seen as asceticism. With another, it might be seen as athleticism. Agony? Boredom? Fatalism?

      Right view isn’t just one long, uncaring, grey day—except when it is.

      Something that’s helped me because I’m mentally ill, is to try to examine the movements of mind and not thoroughly rely on them. But the ground in which the mind moves—what’s that? Is it even possible for that to be inconsistent? The painting might be a riot of color, but what about the wall, just outside the frame, against which the painting has been hung?

      Fatalism seems too dead, too settled and certain of itself to be Zen.

      Chet

      Sat Today (don’t know what the other thing means. Ihn? Something like that? IAH?)
      But the ground in which the mind moves—what’s that? Is it even possible for that to be inconsistent? The painting might be a riot of color, but what about the wall, just outside the frame, against which the painting has been hung?
      The painting and the wall and you seeing it are one. The ground in which the mind moves is groundless. The movement itself is constant. Letting go of fear of groundlessness, letting go of need for certainy, letting go of resistance to unwanted and attachment to desired, becoming at ease with the flow of life : in clarity, in mental turbulence, in health in illness. That's how I started to practice after I realised that looking for the "unchanged, unmoved, self" is just creating duality.

      Land A Hand/lah. Is a daily practice of sharing compassion and our usefulness to others. You may include that after your comment if you did something nice for anyone. I couldn't find a link to the Lah thread.

      Appologies for going over 3 sentences.
      Gassho
      Sat.

      Comment

      • Kotei
        Treeleaf Unsui
        • Mar 2015
        • 4138

        #18
        Originally posted by Ania
        I couldn't find a link to the Lah thread.
        Dear All, As you know, we've asked folks to write “SAT TODAY” next to their signature before posting in this Forum. "SAT TODAY" means that someone has sat Zazen sometime during the past day, and that they will have “sat before chatting” in the Forum. Signing "SatToday" - Please


        Kotei sat/lah today.
        義道 冴庭 / Gidō Kotei.

        Comment

        • Chet
          Member
          • Apr 2019
          • 21

          #19
          Originally posted by Ania
          The painting and the wall and you seeing it are one. The ground in which the mind moves is groundless. The movement itself is constant. Letting go of fear of groundlessness, letting go of need for certainy, letting go of resistance to unwanted and attachment to desired, becoming at ease with the flow of life : in clarity, in mental turbulence, in health in illness. That's how I started to practice after I realised that looking for the "unchanged, unmoved, self" is just creating duality.

          Land A Hand/lah. Is a daily practice of sharing compassion and our usefulness to others. You may include that after your comment if you did something nice for anyone. I couldn't find a link to the Lah thread.

          Appologies for going over 3 sentences.
          Gassho
          Sat.
          I should have anticipated someone would try to out-Zen me.

          Happens every time.

          Chet

          st
          Last edited by Chet; 10-26-2020, 07:15 PM.

          Comment

          • Jishin
            Member
            • Oct 2012
            • 4821

            #20
            Originally posted by Chet
            I should have anticipated someone would try to out-Zen me.

            Happens every time.

            Chet

            st
            Hi Chet,

            What does out-Zen me mean?

            Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

            Comment

            • Inshin
              Member
              • Jul 2020
              • 557

              #21
              Chet, Is it a competition?

              I was actually asking myself a lot the same question as you posted before I encountered Zen

              Gassho
              Sat

              Comment

              • Chet
                Member
                • Apr 2019
                • 21

                #22
                Originally posted by Ania
                Chet, Is it a competition?

                I was actually asking myself a lot the same question as you posted before I encountered Zen

                Gassho
                Sat
                It often seems that way, but I don't even have my Zen running shoes. You'll beat me every time.

                Chet

                sat

                Comment

                • Jundo
                  Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 40190

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Ania
                  The painting and the wall and you seeing it are one. The ground in which the mind moves is groundless. The movement itself is constant. Letting go of fear of groundlessness, letting go of need for certainy, letting go of resistance to unwanted and attachment to desired, becoming at ease with the flow of life : in clarity, in mental turbulence, in health in illness. That's how I started to practice after I realised that looking for the "unchanged, unmoved, self" is just creating duality.
                  ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                  Comment

                  • Jundo
                    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                    • Apr 2006
                    • 40190

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Chet
                    It often seems that way, but I don't even have my Zen running shoes. You'll beat me every time.

                    Chet

                    sat
                    Hi Chet,

                    Perhaps best to take those shoes off, and get to knowing folks first before quipping. Yes?

                    Gassho, Jundo

                    SatTodayLAH
                    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                    Comment

                    • Chet
                      Member
                      • Apr 2019
                      • 21

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Jundo
                      Hi Chet,

                      Perhaps best to take those shoes off, and get to knowing folks first before quipping. Yes?

                      Gassho, Jundo

                      SatTodayLAH
                      No, I'm allowed to be disappointed by a first impression. So are they.

                      I'm trying to think of something more dangerous than blithely saying there is no groundless ground.

                      Chet
                      Sat
                      Last edited by Chet; 11-04-2020, 07:57 PM.

                      Comment

                      • Inshin
                        Member
                        • Jul 2020
                        • 557

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Chet
                        No, I'm allowed to be disappointed by a first impression. So are they.

                        I'm trying to think of something more dangerous than blithely saying there is no groundless ground.

                        Chet
                        Sat


                        Words fail so often.

                        rsz_img_20201104_200950.jpg

                        Artwork by Iwasaki Tsuneo
                        Gassho
                        Sat

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