Pirated Books within Ethical Context of Refraining from Stealing

[Elijah]

Hello everyone,

I had a question related to pirated books (especially uploaded on Terebess) and how it relates to the precept of refraining from stealing.

A precept we take as Buddhist practitioners is to refrain from stealing -- taking what is not given. But I was thinking, doesn't this go against viewing illegally uploaded books onto the web, particularly books uploaded on Terebess. Would it not go against the precept of stealing to read material which we did not buy? These authors work very hard, and dedicated a lot of their time to publishing these books, and we take away from their income (livelihood for them to afford their necessities) when we illegally downloaded/read these copies. I can only imagine if we were authors and we worked really hard in publishing material, and we didn't receive the necessary income to live because others found illegal copies of our work online. Or, any of us working normal 9-5 jobs, we didn't get paid for our hard work.

As it relates to deceased authors, it's my understanding that authors can appoint a family member (or friend) to receive the income after they have passed away, so the stance to say that the deceased authors will not reap the fruits of their work would be also incorrect (though, correct me if I'm wrong).

Thanks so much!

Elijah

[Horin]

I think that is a very interesting question. And for myself I used to read also many books in this way.
While man people are going to justify that, saying that the Dharma should be shared for free, or that downloading ebooks without paying isn't stealing, I think it is indeed violating the precept of no to take what's not given. I stopped it last year and instead I am going to buy the books that I liked.
But I think that's a difficult topic and I'm looking forward to the coming replies here.

Sorry for more than 3 sentences

Gassho

Horin

Stlah

Enviado desde mi PLK-L01 mediante Tapatalk

[Seikan]

Great question, and I'm sure this will come up soon in our ongoing study of the precepts.

For me, I firmly believe that downloading or otherwise receiving copyrighted materials that were not properly paid for (by oneself or even as a gift from another) is stealing. This goes for books, music, movies, etc., because if we participate in such activity, we are stealing from all those that earn their livelihood off of the creation of such materials (authors, musicians, distributors, etc.).

On the other hand, if materials are explicitly made available for free distribution (as many Dharma books certainly are), then that is no problem at all.

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-

(Sorry for the extra sentence above...).


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Naiko]

Great question, and I'm sure this will come up soon in our ongoing study of the precepts.

For me, I firmly believe that downloading or otherwise receiving copyrighted materials that were not properly paid for (by oneself or even as a gift from another) is stealing. This goes for books, music, movies, etc., because if we participate in such activity, we are stealing from all those that earn their livelihood off of the creation of such materials (authors, musicians, distributors, etc.).

On the other hand, if materials are explicitly made available for free distribution (as many Dharma books certainly are), then that is no problem at all.

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-

(Sorry for the extra sentence above...).


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Yes, this. Well said.
Gassho,
Krista
st

[gaurdianaq]

I feel this warrants a longer response... So apologies in advanced.

First off I want to start off by saying, support the author, artist whenever possible.

That being said I want to ask a question, what does it mean to own something? If I go to the store and buy a book, do I own that book? Is it mine to do whatever I want with? If I want to give it away can I? If I want to resell it, can I still do that? Now what if I take the time to perfectly recreate that book, page by page I take the time to create a perfect copy of it, is that copy also mine to do whatever I want with? I'm assuming most people will say yes to the first one, and no to the second. Which would mean we're paying for the content inside the book (plus whatever the cost was for them to print the book).

This is something that never really needed to be worried about as much because recreating a book for the average person was extremely difficult. In this day and age, technology easily lets us mass produce things. If I bought a digital book that came in a PDF format, most people would agree that it's not right for me to redistribute that PDF, because that would be taking away the authors means to support themselves.

But what if a book is out of print and the only way to get a copy is to buy one used from someone (which most will agree is fine as long as it's not a forged copy), you're not supporting the author, you're supporting the person was the previous owner of that copy, which is fine. They're keeping it in circulation in a sense by making sure it is not thrown out. But in this digital age I ask, if a book is out of print, and someone has a pdf that can be distributed, who are you harming by redistributing. There is no one distributing that digital copy as it is, and it's lost knowledge beyond the few who can afford to hunt it down and purchase a used copy. In that scenario, who am I taking from by downloading a PDF of the book? The people who own used copies who might want to sell them? (That seems like a stretch in reasoning)

In this scenario, who are we stealing from? Are we taking away from whatever publisher owns the rights to that book? Not really because they chose to take it off the market, in the past you could make the argument that it was taken out of print because it was harming the company to keep it in print, but in this digital age it costs nearly nothing to put a digital copy out there.

So TLDR, support content creators/maintainers when possible, but if it's not possible to support the creators/maintainers, don't feel too bad about pirating a digital copy...

Also to clarify about what I mean by maintainer, clearly sales of the Shobogenzo aren't going to Dogen or Dogens descendents, but there are people who put in the time and effort to keep it translated and available to the public, and those people deserve to be supported.

Again, apologies for going over...


Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Jundo]

Hello everyone,

I had a question related to pirated books (especially uploaded on Terebess) and how it relates to the precept of refraining from stealing.

A precept we take as Buddhist practitioners is to refrain from stealing -- taking what is not given. But I was thinking, doesn't this go against viewing illegally uploaded books onto the web, particularly books uploaded on Terebess.

Hi Elijah,

Here is my understanding about the books at Terebess, having spoken to some people about it. The books are usually older or academic works uploaded with the author's awareness and tacit consent, and they will take them down if the author requests. In many cases, because they are Buddhist or academic books and older (not very recent), the authors are more concerned about the ideas and teachings within them being known than financial profit.

Furthermore, there is fair use for academic purposes in which, if only a short passage or quotes are being used, it is fine especially if for educational purposes.

Finally, if the book is being used while someone waits for a purchase, or if one can or does also request the book from a public library and is waiting, then I believe that the temporary use of the book is fine. I own a purchased copy of almost all the books on Terebess, and they also have quite a few that are now out of print and can only be acquired as a used and expensive out-of-print edition too.

(Sorry for running book length long)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Seikan]

Hi Elijah,

Here is my understanding about the books at Terebess, having spoken to some people about it. The books are usually older or academic works uploaded with the author's awareness and tacit consent, and they will take them down if the author requests. In many cases, because they are Buddhist or academic books and older (not very recent), the authors are more concerned about the ideas and teachings within them being known than financial profit.

Furthermore, there is fair use for academic purposes in which, if only a short passage or quotes are being used, it is fine especially if for educational purposes.

Finally, if the book is being used while someone waits for a purchase, or if one can or does also request the book from a public library and is waiting, then I believe that the temporary use of the book is fine. I own a purchased copy of almost all the books on Terebess, and they also have quite a few that are now out of print and can only be acquired as a used and expensive out-of-print edition too.

(Sorry for running book length long)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Fully agree with Jundo's more detailed and more relevant response.

I'd like to add that if money is tight, public libraries (where available) are another wonderful option as they can often track down hard-to-find out-of-print materials. And supporting public libraries is a great way to support free access to expertly vetted/curated information in this age of easily distributed information of a questionable nature (i.e., social media posts).

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Nanrin]

Hello Elijah and everyone else.

When studying the precepts prior to jukai I spent a while studying about copyrights. I started out being a very scrupulous follower of copyright law and ended up being a law-breaking pirate! I now believe these laws to be unethical and mostly harmful.

Do not be stingy with the dharma or materials. Support nuns, authors, charities, monks, publishers, teachers, centres as much as you can. I believe in supporting other people and I believe in sharing knowledge. The sutras don't come with copyright signs - they come with exhortations to copy them! The Dharma should be given freely.

Making a copy without permission is just that - doing something without legal permission. Typically one should get permission and follow the law, but it is not strictly necessary - perhaps due inability to pay or lack of other means to access material copyrights need to be broken. Reading a borrowed or used book causes as much 'harm' to the publisher and author as would a digital copy. If you have the means to, please, buy a copy, buy a dozen! If you don't, please, make a copy and benefit from the teachings!

I would not disparage a fellow practitioner for seeking out the dharma.

Gassho,

Nanrin

Sattoday

[Jundo]

Hello Elijah and everyone else.

When studying the precepts prior to jukai I spent a while studying about copyrights. I started out being a very scrupulous follower of copyright law and ended up being a law-breaking pirate! I now believe these laws to be unethical and mostly harmful.

Do not be stingy with the dharma or materials. Support nuns, authors, charities, monks, publishers, teachers, centres as much as you can. I believe in supporting other people and I believe in sharing knowledge. The sutras don't come with copyright signs - they come with exhortations to copy them! The Dharma should be given freely.

Making a copy without permission is just that - doing something without legal permission. Typically one should get permission and follow the law, but it is not strictly necessary - perhaps due inability to pay or lack of other means to access material copyrights need to be broken. Reading a borrowed or used book causes as much 'harm' to the publisher and author as would a digital copy. If you have the means to, please, buy a copy, buy a dozen! If you don't, please, make a copy and benefit from the teachings!

I would not disparage a fellow practitioner for seeking out the dharma.

Gassho,

Nanrin

Sattoday

Well, bottom line is that it is best to buy it or get a used copy or borrow from a library when possible, and other uses should be limited in scope and for educational purposes only. That's my personal rule of thumb. I will also use a scholar's book if I know that I can get it from the library and the purpose is primarily for education, not profit.

I buy novels and new books just released and still in publication.

For tv etc., living in Japan, I try to watch online only what is offered by one of the paid services. There have been a few exceptions for news and public affairs shows that I think are important and I cannot get here in Japan. In that case, I take on the Karma of being an informed citizen overseas. However, I try to limit that.

Gassho, J

STLAH

[Amelia]

This is a very complicated subject for me.

I am going to use Star Wars as an example. There are no legitimized digital, DVD, or Blu Ray copies of the original, unaltered theatrical versions of the original Star Wars movies that you can choose to pay for if you want them. There are only the jumbled, crowded, enhanced, and downright hard to watch remastered editions. However, there are pirated copies of the Laserdisc version that many Star Wars fans feel is "criminal" to let disappear, so they spread it around.

Illegal, yes, BUT also not taking money from the hands of anyone, as there is no legitimate source that is actually selling it on behalf of the creators... even the few laserdiscs for sale only benefit the seller on ebay, and not George Lucas and the team responsible for the films.

I guess you could argue that George Lucas and Disney reserve the right to refuse to let anyone see the original films if they choose to do so, but for me that would be choosing to never watch Star Wars again, because the remastered Blu Ray editions, which I have paid for are very... well, you have to be a major Star Wars nerd to understand exactly why it is so infuriating.

Excuse my length
Gassho
Sat today, lah

[Tairin]

I know a number of artists, writers, filmmakers, and musicians. Out of principle and respect for them I do not pirate material or knowingly leverage pirated material.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[gaurdianaq]

This is a very complicated subject for me.

I am going to use Star Wars as an example. There are no legitimized digital, DVD, or Blu Ray copies of the original, unaltered theatrical versions of the original Star Wars movies that you can choose to pay for if you want them. There are only the jumbled, crowded, enhanced, and downright hard to watch remastered editions. However, there are pirated copies of the Laserdisc version that many Star Wars fans feel is "criminal" to let disappear, so they spread it around.

Illegal, yes, BUT also not taking money from the hands of anyone, as there is no legitimate source that is actually selling it on behalf of the creators... even the few laserdiscs for sale only benefit the seller on ebay, and not George Lucas and the team responsible for the films.

I guess you could argue that George Lucas and Disney reserve the right to refuse to let anyone see the original films if they choose to do so, but for me that would be choosing to never watch Star Wars again, because the remastered Blu Ray editions, which I have paid for are very... well, you have to be a major Star Wars nerd to understand exactly why it is so infuriating.

Excuse my length
Gassho
Sat today, lah

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on these things, why let these works just fade away and be lost forever. It's just like how with emulators for games, people are trying to make sure all these old games are archived so they're not lost, while the companies that legally own them are quite willing to let them fade away forever because they wouldn't be able to make much of a profit on them.


Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Risho]

This is a very complicated subject for me.

I am going to use Star Wars as an example. There are no legitimized digital, DVD, or Blu Ray copies of the original, unaltered theatrical versions of the original Star Wars movies that you can choose to pay for if you want them. There are only the jumbled, crowded, enhanced, and downright hard to watch remastered editions. However, there are pirated copies of the Laserdisc version that many Star Wars fans feel is "criminal" to let disappear, so they spread it around.

Illegal, yes, BUT also not taking money from the hands of anyone, as there is no legitimate source that is actually selling it on behalf of the creators... even the few laserdiscs for sale only benefit the seller on ebay, and not George Lucas and the team responsible for the films.

I guess you could argue that George Lucas and Disney reserve the right to refuse to let anyone see the original films if they choose to do so, but for me that would be choosing to never watch Star Wars again, because the remastered Blu Ray editions, which I have paid for are very... well, you have to be a major Star Wars nerd to understand exactly why it is so infuriating.

Excuse my length
Gassho
Sat today, lah

Those lucas edits are horrid; he should have stopped w the vhs special editions; he ruined the ewok song and having hayden christensen as anakjns ghost at the end of jedi, cringe; and jabba in star wars; and we all know solo shot first!!!!. and dont get me started on the disney star wars nonsense where it takes 2 days to become a jedi to defeat luke skywalker in melee combat hahaha im obsessed

gassho

risho
-stlah

[Margherita]

It is a complicated subject for me too. I know it is illegal, although I have downloaded material since I was a teenager, starting with a dial connection, it took ages to download a single tune. When I couldn't afford art I downloaded what I wanted or used the library. Now I have a job (I hope so at least, thank you Covid) and I can afford buying more things, so if I can find a copy of a book I need I will buy it. Although, I tend to buy second hand and I still use the library a lot. I download books to see if I like them, or if I can't find them anywhere (or are way too much expensive). I understand that little authors need money from their art, so if I can, I will buy it or support them, but major artists I don't think they need it as much. Someone mentioned Lucas and Star wars, I'm not a fan but I believe that Mr Lucas made millions with his franchise, would I feel guilty in downloading a SW episode? Well, to be frank... not in the slightest. Would I feel guilty in downloading a Stephen King book when his net worth is of $500 million? I think he has enough money.

Sorry for going over three sentences,
Gassho,
Mags
ST

[Sekiyuu]

I have the privilege of making a living from selling my own videogame (singular now, hopefully plural soon), but I still think this is a complicated topic. I'll save my full contribution for the precepts discussion since it's ended up a bit lengthy. In short: I'd love if everyone bought the game, but I know there are edge cases where that's not possible, and I'd rather they get a chance to play and maybe contribute to word-of-mouth marketing because I don't think they'd ever buy the game.

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today