(Non)Split Topic: Enlightenment's Real (Batchelor Foolish) but forget "Enlightenment"

[Tomás ESP]

In regards to practice-enlightenment, I have a question: When Dogen says that practice is enlightenment, does he mean all of zazen, or does he only mean the moments were we are mindful during zazen? If the practice is enlightenment regardless of the quality of mindfulness that is present, why practice at all? I feel that enlightenment might be a sham after all. But I also feel a huge difference between practice when I am mindful and focused and when my mind just wanders like crazy and I am not paying attention.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Bion]

In regards to practice-enlightenment, I have a question: When Dogen says that practice is enlightenment, does he mean all of zazen, or does he only mean the moments were we are mindful during zazen? If the practice is enlightenment regardless of the quality of mindfulness that is present, why practice at all? I feel that enlightenment might be a sham after all. But I also feel a huge difference between practice when I am mindful and focused and when my mind just wanders like crazy and I am not paying attention.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

I dare chime in on this one, and say it’s like someone riding a bike for the first time. For a few seconds they might maintain balance and be ACTUALLY cycling experiencing that sensation of controlling the bike but most of the time there might just be a lot of falling over, or using the legs to balance or lack of control. In Zazen we might have brief moments or longer moments where we actually cease all creation of karma ( through body, speech and MIND), and we realize our true nature. Other moments we get distracted, or lose focus, or get caught up in sensations etc.. But ultimately, sitting in zazen is practicing the practice of Buddhas, in stillness, our bodies mindfulness itself, not obedient to the senses but observers of them. That is in part, and in very few sentences, my take on it.

Sorry for running long again!!!

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Tomás ESP]

I dare chime in on this one, and say it’s like someone riding a bike for the first time. For a few seconds they might maintain balance and be ACTUALLY cycling experiencing that sensation of controlling the bike but most of the time there might just be a lot of falling over, or using the legs to balance or lack of control. In Zazen we might have brief moments or longer moments where we actually cease all creation of karma ( through body, speech and MIND), and we realize our true nature. Other moments we get distracted, or lose focus, or get caught up in sensations etc.. But ultimately, sitting in zazen is practicing the practice of Buddhas, in stillness, our bodies mindfulness itself, not obedient to the senses but observers of them. That is in part, and in very few sentences, my take on it.

Sorry for running long again!!!

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

So, if I understand correctly, one just sits MINDFULLY aware of everything and nothing while sitting in zazen, but without a goal. BUT, there is mindfulness and, if you get distracted, you return to being mindful. So, in the end, could we say that zazen practice is the same or very similar as open awareness practice?

Thanks for the clarification Jake

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Bion]

So, if I understand correctly, one just sits MINDFULLY aware of everything and nothing while sitting in zazen, but without a goal. BUT, there is mindfulness and, if you get distracted, you return to being mindful. So, in the end, could we say that zazen practice is the same or very similar as open awareness practice?

Thanks for the clarification Jake

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

I couldn’t possibly answer that, cause I don’t know what open awareness practice is.. I do think there is a difference between observing what happens without interfering with it, not focusing on thoughts, just thinking the thought of zazen and an ACTIVE exercise of focusing the attention on whatever we want to observe. Zazen, as I understand and live it, is in part a goalless act of letting go - letting go of ideas, expectations, preferences, thinking, judgments, even a letting go of our body as we let it sit still, firmly grounded, not fighting gravity to stay upright, not at the mercy of the senses, just united with them.

I might however be absolutely wrong! So, maybe listen to someone else who knows what they’re talking about! [emoji1]

[emoji1374] SatToday lah (ran long again, I AM SORRY!)

[Tomás ESP]

I couldn’t possibly answer that, cause I don’t know what open awareness practice is.. I do think there is a difference between observing what happens without interfering with it, not focusing on thoughts, just thinking the thought of zazen and an ACTIVE exercise of focusing the attention on whatever we want to observe. Zazen, as I understand and live it, is in part a goalless act of letting go - letting go of ideas, expectations, preferences, thinking, judgments, even a letting go of our body as we let it sit still, firmly grounded, not fighting gravity to stay upright, not at the mercy of the senses, just united with them.

I might however be absolutely wrong! So, maybe listen to someone else who knows what they’re talking about! [emoji1]

[emoji1374] SatToday lah (ran long again, I AM SORRY!)

From my previous practice, I understand open awareness as just being mindful of whatever happens to go through awareness, either thoughts, physical sensations, noise, feelings, etc. Just seeing them as clouds going through the pristine blue sky of awareness. Mindful of it all, yet not clinging to anything.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Seikan]

So, if I understand correctly, one just sits MINDFULLY aware of everything and nothing while sitting in zazen, but without a goal. BUT, there is mindfulness and, if you get distracted, you return to being mindful. So, in the end, could we say that zazen practice is the same or very similar as open awareness practice?

Thanks for the clarification Jake

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

From my own experience with "choiceless/open awareness" practice in Vipassana, I would say that it is very similar to Shikantaza with one critical difference. In choiceless awareness, one is still sitting with a goal to achieve something, while in Shikantaza, the practice is the goal itself. While it may seem like a small difference, I can say (at least for myself) that maintaining that attitude while sitting makes all the difference in the world.

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Bion]

From my own experience with "choiceless/open awareness" practice in Vipassana, I would say that it is very similar to Shikantaza with one critical difference. In choiceless awareness, one is still sitting with a goal to achieve something, while in Shikantaza, the practice is the goal itself. While it may seem like a small difference, I can say (at least for myself) that maintaining that attitude while sitting makes all the difference in the world.

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

That! [emoji3526]

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Jundo]

... but I always come out of them thinking "Okay... well... Buddha still has to file their taxes...".

That's a keeper.

Reminds me of Jack Kornfield's book title, "after the ecstasy, the laundry."

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

In regards to practice-enlightenment, I have a question: When Dogen says that practice is enlightenment, does he mean all of zazen, or does he only mean the moments were we are mindful during zazen? If the practice is enlightenment regardless of the quality of mindfulness that is present, why practice at all? I feel that enlightenment might be a sham after all. But I also feel a huge difference between practice when I am mindful and focused and when my mind just wanders like crazy and I am not paying attention.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

Shikantaza is a strange bird, and is perfect and complete Shikantaza whether one is feeling "mindful" or "not mindful" in any moment. It is just the same as saying that the whole universe is "Buddha," whole and complete, perfectly just as it is in this moment, whether or not it appears complete or is so filled with ugliness, greed, anger, violence and division in any one spot or moment that it appears anything but "whole and complete" as it is. We do not sit to attain "mindfulness" or anything at all, but only sitting for sitting's sake with nothing more to attain, nothing lacking, nothing to be added, no other place to be, no other action possible in that moment.

But here is the crazy-wise catch: Sitting with radically "nothing more to attain, nothing lacking, nothing to be added, no other place to be, no other action possible in that moment" is the attaining of a wondrous wisdom.

Zazen is sacred and complete whether we are "focused" or "mind wandering like crazy, not paying attention." No difference whatsoever. And yet, and yet (here is the Koany response) we just sit, not grabbing thoughts, not entangled with thoughts, just observing all in equanimity. Even so, Zazen that feels mindful or Zazen which feels lost in thought is all beautiful Zazen. Nonetheless, we sit without wallowing in thoughts. If wallowing in thoughts, return to open awareness, following the breath etc. and stop wallowing. However, wallowing or not wallowing is just Buddha, just the same.

Understand?

To use Jake's example:

For a few seconds they might maintain balance and be ACTUALLY cycling experiencing that sensation of controlling the bike but most of the time there might just be a lot of falling over, or using the legs to balance or lack of control.

Riding with balance and grace, or falling in the mud and becoming bloodied, all Buddha Bike Riding. One is not better than the other, all sacred, all whole and complete bike riding. Do not make the mistake of thinking "oh, this is only good bike riding when I am up and balanced." No, even falling in the mud is good bike riding. If you fall in the mud, get back up on the bike (assuming you can. ). But really, up on the bike or on your ass ... wonderful!

Nonetheless, we do our best to stay on the bike.

This old post may explain more:

Right Zazen and Wrong Zazen

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7573-SPECIAL-REPOST-Right-Zazen-and-Wrong-Zazen

There is no way to do Zazen "wrong" ... even when you are doing it completely "wrong".

(That does not mean, though, that there is not a "right" and "wrong" way to "do" it).

...


Thus, allowing things to just be the way they are, no judging, not resisting, being with the flow, allowing 'happy' days to be happy and 'sad' days to be sad, all while dropping all idea of 'happy' and 'sad', whether really enjoying or really not enjoying ... fully dropping away any and all thought of doing Zazen 'right' or doing it 'wrong' ... THIS IS DOING IT RIGHT. And when you are doing it right, it will usually feel like you are doing it right, for there is no resistance, and a great sense of balance, insight and brilliance..

Fighting things, wishing things were some other way that how they are, judging, resisting, going against the grain and the flow, wishing 'sad' days were happy or 'happy' days were happier ... filled with a sense of self bumping up against all the other 'selfs', with a mind held by thoughts of doing Zazen 'right' or doing it 'wrong' ... THIS IS DOING ZAZEN WRONG. And when you are doing it wrong, it will usually feel like you are doing it wrong, for there is resistance, and a sense of imbalance, cloudiness, greyness.

But as well, even at those times when Zazen feels 'wrong', when there is resistance or imbalance ... it is still 'right', still 'Zazen', still just what it is. IT CANNOT BE WRONG. This last point is vital to understanding.

Yes, that is a Koan. Is it clear? Please really really penetrate in your body and mind what I just wrote.

(Sorry for running long. There is no right or wrong, but it was wrong to run long).

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tomás ESP]

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH