prolonged right leg numbness after zazenkai

[shikantazen]

Old wives tale, or at least, very exaggerated.

Bottom line: find a way of sitting that feels reasonably balanced, comfortable, stable ... chair is excellent ...

Thank you Jundo. What do you think about sitting straight but with back support (say on a sofa) and legs folded (regular, not burmese and not lotus)? How important is sitting without a back support to the practice?

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Jundo]

Thank you Jundo. What do you think about sitting straight but with back support (say on a sofa) and legs folded (regular, not burmese and not lotus)? How important is sitting without a back support to the practice?

Gassho,
Sam
ST

I say, first, talk to your doctor again and see what he thinks.

Second, I recommend this book which is about finding the balanced, stable, comfortable posture(s) right for your bodily needs (more than one, as the body changes even during the same day). He is mostly about cross legged sitting, but the book also covers chairs ...

Book Recommendation: - THE POSTURE OF MEDITATION

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6913-Book-Recommendation-THE-POSTURE-OF-MEDITATION&highlight=johnson+posture

Third, please give up being overly concerned with "correct" posture. Posture is a good way to sit, balanced, comfortable and stable ... and then FORGET ABOUT IT! It is not the "key" to anything.

Fourth, if sitting in a chair, a soft seat like a sofa is usually not recommended (unless there is real medical need), and a firmer chair is usually the way. Some folks put the Zafu lightly behind the back like this, others do so without the Zafu, do whichever is best for you.




And that's it. Don't worry too much about it. It is like adjusting the driver's seat in the car for a long drive ... set it back where up like, set the degree of uprightness, adjust the mirror and the seatbelt ... and then just drive. You don't keep moving the seat and redoing the seatbelt while driving, do you? Is the proper seat position the secret to good driving?

(ran long, sorry. Please forget about it.)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[shikantazen]

Thanks Jundo, I also found this: https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng...hair_zazen.pdf

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Tai Shi]

When I have my Lidocaine pain patches in place, a straight back chair is possible, and this is allowable because of doctors.
Gassho
sat / lah
Tai Shi


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Thanks Jundo, I also found this: https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng...hair_zazen.pdf

Gassho,
Sam
ST

Yes, but don't get too attached to doing it "exactly" right by the instructions. Just relax, stable, balanced, comfortable way. The instructions are not tailored for your specific body. My rule of thumb is "if it feels comfortable and balanced, it probably is comfortable and balanced and a good way to sit."

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Shoka]

I'm wondering if there is a way to do a Treeleaf Yoga class like the Zazenkai is done. My personal practice is Ashtanga and Power Flow, both of which are quite brutal. But, I can teach Yin Yoga, which focuses on the hips, hamstrings, shoulders and back. It's a static practice. No movement, just getting into a pose and holding it for 3 to 5 minutes per pose. People would need to have a couple of Yoga blocks and a strap, but that stuff can be purchased for about 20 bucks or less. Yin is very gentle and accessible to all age groups, as long as you can get yourself off the floor once you sit down. If I do 3 or 4 of these, they could be recorded and archived like the weekly Zazenkai and people could use them whenever. They would need to be roughly 1 hour.

People could also attend live, and if it catches on, we could continue indefinitely. Just an idea.

The only problem for me is that I have no laptop or internet service other than my phone. But I have Zoom on my phone so it might work.

Apologies for going long.

Gassho,
Juki
Sat today and lah

Juki,

It's a lovely idea, the main concern for doing it at Treeleaf is that our membership's accessibility runs such a huge gambit. We have a membership pool that span from people who run marathons to those who are bedridden. Being inclusive for all those variations is a large undertaking.

I happen to love yin yoga, and it was the primary type of yoga I practiced for years. As you said it can be very accessible because it doesn't rely on strength, but it can require a lot of modifications and use of props for bodies which have greater degrees of flexibility. That is actually the type of yoga that I love to teach.

How about we chat over PM and see if there is something that might work for the sangha?

Gassho,
Shoka
sat

[Meitou]

It actually sounds an impossible undertaking Shoka. I'll leave you to discuss it, but if all else fails, links to reputable vids on YouTube would be just as useful imo.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday

[Seishin]

Some interesting observations in that we are all different. Being a short legged westerner I cannot sit full or half lotus and I get numb sitting Burmese. So I have sat a variant of seiza for nearly 1500 consequential days. Full traditional sieza without a cushion was something we did in my martial arts days, so maybe I am used to it but I sit a variant of what is normally suggested. I sit with the zafu flat in its normal orientation, with my legs either side. I have an oversized zafu that takes the pressure of the knees but also have the zafu a little more forward than is normally prescribed. This works for me that is me. If I put the zafu on its edge as is normally recommended for sitting seiza, within few minutes both legs will be numb due to compression of the sciatic nerves. This works for me and may work for others, so I present it just as another option.

Sat lah

[Gareth]

Somehow I t’s the reverse for me, I feel more pressure on the knees if the zafu is flat rather than on its edge.

I have started to do the following exercises for the lotus position, though I am not optimistic about being able to do even a 1/2 lotus:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nnUluhSXx6w

Gassho,
Gareth
Sat

[Juki]

Juki,

It's a lovely idea, the main concern for doing it at Treeleaf is that our membership's accessibility runs such a huge gambit. We have a membership pool that span from people who run marathons to those who are bedridden. Being inclusive for all those variations is a large undertaking.

I happen to love yin yoga, and it was the primary type of yoga I practiced for years. As you said it can be very accessible because it doesn't rely on strength, but it can require a lot of modifications and use of props for bodies which have greater degrees of flexibility. That is actually the type of yoga that I love to teach.

How about we chat over PM and see if there is something that might work for the sangha?

Gassho,
Shoka
sat

I sent you a message, Shoka. I agree this may be problematic.

Gassho,
Juki

Sat today and lah

[Onka]

I think Yoga is a terrific and beneficial practice but without a really well qualified teacher right there with you to help with alignment and offer suggestions to help facilitate individual limitations I think the risks are too great. Years ago my partner and I could afford to go to a good Yoga studio where the teacher was able to instuct my partner what poses risked exacerbating her MS and what poses I needed to sit out because of my spinal stuff. I'm glad our Sangha has Shoka and Juki but I'd hate for any other member to jump into Yoga without seeing someone like Shoka or Juki IRL. Apologies for an extra sentence but I'm thankful to Juki for sharing their wisdom with Sam about alternative sitting positions.
Gassho
Onka
Sat

[Juki]

I think Yoga is a terrific and beneficial practice but without a really well qualified teacher right there with you to help with alignment and offer suggestions to help facilitate individual limitations I think the risks are too great. Years ago my partner and I could afford to go to a good Yoga studio where the teacher was able to instuct my partner what poses risked exacerbating her MS and what poses I needed to sit out because of my spinal stuff. I'm glad our Sangha has Shoka and Juki but I'd hate for any other member to jump into Yoga without seeing someone like Shoka or Juki IRL. Apologies for an extra sentence but I'm thankful to Juki for sharing their wisdom with Sam about alternative sitting positions.
Gassho
Onka
Sat

This is essentially what I advised Shoka. I was trained in a lineage where the teacher briefly demonstrates what a pose looks like, and then walks around the room giving verbal cues and checking alignment and form. That's essentially impossible online, and with the Sangha all being at different levels of mobility, it seems a stretch (no Yoga pun intended) to think this would work. It was wishful thinking on my part. The last thing I would ever want to do as a Yoga teacher or a Buddhist is to be responsible for injuring someone.

Apologies for going long.

Gassho,
Juki
Sat today and lah

[Ryumon]

Old wives tale, or at least, very exaggerated.

The basic truth is that a balanced, comfortable, stable posture is conducive to extended comfortable sitting and some balance and stability of mind, BUT don't become obsessive or compulsive about this idea. Some Japanese and other teachers (e.g., Issho Fujita does this quite a bit, and Nishijima Roshi did a little bit) have some ideas based on some unscientific ideas within Asian medicine about energy flows, spine alignment and such that are just not something to overdo or think of as the "key" to Zazen.

I would argue that it does have some validity. I've long been a student of the Alexander Technique, which is about finding the optimal "use" of the body. I know that when my head, neck, and spine are aligned without undue stress, it does lead to a more peaceful mind. I'm struck by the two photos above of people sitting in chairs. The person on the top looks well aligned, and not stressed at all; the man at the bottom is holding his head back, which leads to a lot of tension in the neck. There are natural curves in both the back and the neck, and the man at the bottom looks like he's flattened everything, in a very poor "use" of his body.

My 2 pence.

Gassho,

Kirk

just sat on a stool...

[Meitou]

This is essentially what I advised Shoka. I was trained in a lineage where the teacher briefly demonstrates what a pose looks like, and then walks around the room giving verbal cues and checking alignment and form. That's essentially impossible online, and with the Sangha all being at different levels of mobility, it seems a stretch (no Yoga pun intended) to think this would work. It was wishful thinking on my part. The last thing I would ever want to do as a Yoga teacher or a Buddhist is to be responsible for injuring someone.

Apologies for going long.

Gassho,
Juki
Sat today and lah

It was a great idea however, and I thank you for suggesting it. Yoga classes irl don't cater to people of all abilities in one class and I agree that would not be possible here. I'd never heard of yin yoga though and I'm starting to look through YouTube vids at poses that I think will benefit me.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

[Onka]

It was a great idea however, and I thank you for suggesting it. Yoga classes irl don't cater to people of all abilities in one class and I agree that would not be possible here. I'd never heard of yin yoga though and I'm starting to look through YouTube vids at poses that I think will benefit me.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

Respectfully Meitou an IRL Yoga studio with proper qualified teachers will absolutely cater for those with health challenges in a way Juki describes. Unfortunately a lot of gyms say they do Yoga classes as part of a larger membership but the person teaching often has little to no Yoga qualifications. May I suggest that you don't give up if an IRL studio is what you would benefit from attending, just look for lineage like Juki has mentioned - a bit like finding a good Zen Buddhism teacher, you've got to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Gassho
Onka
Sat