Did Dogen invent Shikantaza?

[A.J.]

That is a famous and very good piece by Prof. Faure. I just finished a lovely Ph.d Thesis on the Daruma-shu and Dogen's relationship to their teachings, and they seem to have been a more orthodox Zen group than they were sometimes accused of by critics.

https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/handle/1887/19051

But I think that Andrew is asking about the situation in early China, not Japan, with the first Chinese Zen folks.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Yes, I did download that PDF for future reference but I think I'm curious about earlier stuff. I've occasionally run into the minority view that there was a layer of Zen tradition that was highly intuitive (based on wandering and encounters) rather than formalized so I'm wondering what aspects of the later tradition can be found in the earlier. I believe Alan Watts also makes an argument that there was an early style that played down meditation (including Zazen) in "The Way of Zen" before the popularity of monasteries.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Hi Andrew,

Let me start at the end:



Historian Morten Schlutter has chronicled the history of Silent Illumination Zazen (in his masterful "How Zen Became Zen", p. 172-174):



Awhile back, I posted quotes from several of the old Chinese masters that seem on point. I will provide the links, and a taste of each:

The Zazen taught in the 'Platform Sutra' is Shikantaza



Hui-neng teaches that Zazen is not about "stilling the mind" to have no thoughts, but about "non-thought, non-form, non-abiding", i.e., freedom from thoughts, form and abiding even amid thoughts form and abiding ... the heart of Shikantaza. Notice in the following that the problem is --not-- that "successive thoughts stop", but only that we do not cling to them:



... In case there is any doubt, this Zazen is seated Zazen ... but sitting unentangled by the forms seen outside through the open eyes, inwardly clear. It is --not-- to be without thoughts, but not to activate them, to pursue and become entangled. The very act of sitting is pure:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?8882-DRAFT-The-Zazen-taught-in-the-Platform-Sutra-is-Shikantaza&p=61069&viewfull=1#post61069

It is not surprising that the meditation style of the Platform Sutra smacks of Shikantaza, as Shikantaza smacks of Silent Illumination ... and such was pretty much the orthodox style of many of the early Chan masters, such as Sekito Kisen (Shitou Xiqian), just two generations from the 6th Patriarch.



Bodhidharma:



Even Master Linji. It is clear that meditation happened in his monastery, but he seemed to emphasize so with a "non-gaining" mind and a "non-learning" meditation of just "turning the light withing":



Andrew, you ask:



Well, not really. The "enigmatic sayings" in the Koans were typically written by later authors of the Song dynasty about figures who lived in the earlier Tang dynasty, and are mostly not considered historical records of events, and instead literary creations. As you can see, the earlier documents such as the Platform Sutra, Record of Rinzai and the like are comparatively easy to understand and are not in the style of "enigmatic phrases."



No. It is pretty clear that the meditation was part of the daily schedule at almost all Chan monasteries from the practice rules we have. There were statements, just as by Linji, against meditation done with gaining mind ("shuzen" or "learning meditation," the same criticism Dogen makes in the Fukanzazengi.) In fact, government authorities would have closed down any monastery viewed as so "lax" as to not be keeping the traditional monastic schedule. There is a good historian's paper on this which I will try to find for you.



No. Almost no teachers of the past held that one was fully awakened by one opening experience.



Sorry, I don't understand the question.



Yes, there was a heavy Taoist influence, specifically from neo-Taoist Xuanxue practices and sensibilities, which perfumed Indian Buddhism to become Chan.

Do you have other concerns?

Sorry for writing long.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Regarding the Platform Sutra: I've read that this text has had a long evolution, undergoing multiple redactions and is full of interpolations so I'm not sure if Dogen-esque sounding language should count in that case.

By moments of awakening I didn't think those old writings were referring to absolute awakening but definitely some distinct experiences (rather than gradual) and interestingly enough it doesn't look like they are usually connected with Zazen.

When asked the meaning of Zen (or some equivalent question) it also seems somewhat conspicuous that answers like "clean your bowl" come up rather than "the meaning of Zen is obviously Zazen".

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

There's a lot in here about the early history of Zen and Chan and how Daruma-shu may have influenced Dogen more than he would like to admit. It seems like lots of pre-Shikantanza meditations had to to with superpower and relics. ( for some reason it reminded me of Ken Wilber's "A brief history of everything" where he describes this period of time in human evolution as magical-thinking). Not sure if it will answer your question but nevertheless interesting read: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2385038...o_tab_contents


Gassho
Sat

That is a famous and very good piece by Prof. Faure. I just finished a lovely Ph.d Thesis on the Daruma-shu and Dogen's relationship to their teachings, and they seem to have been a more orthodox Zen group than they were sometimes accused of by critics.

https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/handle/1887/19051

But I think that Andrew is asking about the situation in early China, not Japan, with the first Chinese Zen folks.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Inshin]

There's a lot in here about the early history of Zen and Chan and how Daruma-shu may have influenced Dogen more than he would like to admit. It seems like lots of pre-Shikantanza meditations had to to with superpower and relics. ( for some reason it reminded me of Ken Wilber's "A brief history of everything" where he describes this period of time in human evolution as magical-thinking). Not sure if it will answer your question but nevertheless interesting read: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2385038...o_tab_contents


Gassho
Sat

[Jundo]

Hi Andrew,

Let me start at the end:

Finally, allowing for point of view expressed by way of personal commentary, I want to be clear that what I am primarily interested in is citations from before the time of Dogen (preferably from the six Chan patriarchs or around their time) that explicitly express the importance of Zazen, the equivalence of practice with enlightenment and other Dogen-esque views.

Historian Morten Schlutter has chronicled the history of Silent Illumination Zazen (in his masterful "How Zen Became Zen", p. 172-174):

The new Caodong tradition, then, seems to have simply adopted the type of meditation already common in Chan and elevated its importance. What made the silent illumination teachings of the Caodong tradition distinctive, therefore, was not the meditation technique or even its doctrinal underpinnings but its sustained, exhuberant celebration of inherent enlightenment and its persistent stress on stillness and de-emphasis on enlightenment as a breakthrough experience. In this way, the Caodong tradition did make meditation an end in itself: as long as meditation was approached correctly, nothing else was really needed. Thus, the silent illumination practice of the new Caodong tradition really did differentiate it from the rest of Chan ... . Even though the new Caodong tradition's teaching style was seen as distinctive, it did not entail, as I have argued above, a radical departure from earlier meditation techniques ...

Awhile back, I posted quotes from several of the old Chinese masters that seem on point. I will provide the links, and a taste of each:

The Zazen taught in the 'Platform Sutra' is Shikantaza

The most specific instruction for "how to" seated Zazen in the text is at the end, as Huineng advises his disciples in his final words from his death bed:

Be the same as you would if I were here, and sit all together in meditation. If you are only peacefully calm and quiet, without motion, without stillness, without birth, without destruction, without coming, without going, without judgments of right and wrong, without staying and without going-this then is the Great Way. After I have gone just practice according to the Dharma in the same way that you did on the days that I was with you.

Hui-neng teaches that Zazen is not about "stilling the mind" to have no thoughts, but about "non-thought, non-form, non-abiding", i.e., freedom from thoughts, form and abiding even amid thoughts form and abiding ... the heart of Shikantaza. Notice in the following that the problem is --not-- that "successive thoughts stop", but only that we do not cling to them:

Successive thoughts do not stop; prior thoughts, present thoughts, and future thoughts follow one after the other without cessation. If one instant of thought is cut off, the Dharma body separates from the physical body, and in the midst of successive thoughts there will be no place for attachment to anything. If one instant of thought clings, then successive thoughts cling; this is known as being fettered. If in all things successive thoughts do not cling, then you are unfettered. Therefore, non-abiding is made the basis. Good friends, being outwardly separated from all forms, this is non-form. When you are separated from form, the substance of your nature is pure. Therefore, non-form is made the substance. To be unstained in all environments is called no-thought ...

... In case there is any doubt, this Zazen is seated Zazen ... but sitting unentangled by the forms seen outside through the open eyes, inwardly clear. It is --not-- to be without thoughts, but not to activate them, to pursue and become entangled. The very act of sitting is pure:

"Now that we know that this is so, what is it in this teaching that we call 'sitting in meditation' (tso-ch'an)? In this teaching 'sitting' means without any obstruction anywhere, outwardly and under all circumstances, not to activate thoughts. 'Meditation' is internally to see the original nature and not become confused.

And what do we call Ch'an meditation (ch'an-ting)? Outwardly to exclude form is 'ch'an'; inwardly to be unconfused is meditation (ting) . Even though there is form on the outside, when internally the nature is not confused, then, from the outset, you are of yourself pure and of yourself in meditation. The very contact with circumstances itself causes confusion . Separation from form on the outside is 'ch'an'; being untouched on the inside is meditation (ting). Being 'ch'an' externally and meditation (ting) internally, it is known as ch'an meditation (ch'an-ting).

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?8882-DRAFT-The-Zazen-taught-in-the-Platform-Sutra-is-Shikantaza&p=61069&viewfull=1#post61069

It is not surprising that the meditation style of the Platform Sutra smacks of Shikantaza, as Shikantaza smacks of Silent Illumination ... and such was pretty much the orthodox style of many of the early Chan masters, such as Sekito Kisen (Shitou Xiqian), just two generations from the 6th Patriarch.

The specific practice experience of shikan taza was first articulated in the Soto Zen lineage (Caodong in Chinese) by the Chinese master Hongzhi Zhengjue (1091-1157; Wanshi Shogaku in Japanese),and further elaborated by the Japanese Soto founder Eihei Dogen (1200-1253). But prior to their expressions of this experience, there are hints of this practice in some of the earlier teachers of the tradition. The founding teachers of this lineage run from Shitou Xiqian (700-790; Sekito Kisen in Japanese), two generations after the Chinese Sixth Ancestor, through three generations to Dongshan Liangjie (807-869; Tozan Ryokai in Japanese), the usually recognized founder of the Caodong, or Soto, lineage in China. ...

Shitou/ Sekito ... wrote another teaching poem, Soanka, "Song of the Grass Hut," which presents more of a practice model for how to develop the space that fosters just sitting. Therein Shitou says, "Just sitting with head covered all things are at rest. Thus this mountain monk does not understand at all." So just sitting does not involve reaching some understanding. It is the subtle activity of allowing all things to be completely at rest just as they are, not poking one's head into the workings of the world.

Shitou also says in Soanka, "Turn around the light to shine within, then just return. . . . Let go of hundreds of years and relax completely. Open your hands and walk, innocent." According to Shitou, the fundamental orientation of turning within, also later described by Hongzhi and Dogen, is simply in order to return to the world, and to our original quality. Letting go of conditioning while steeped in completely relaxed awareness, one is able to act effectively, innocent of grasping and attachments. So the context of this just sitting suggested by Shitou is the possibility of aware and responsive presence that is simple, open-hearted, and straightforward.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150310...f_just_sitting

Bodhidharma:

there is one old proto-Chan writing that some scholars do think might be by the old geezer. Red Pine, in his recent book "Zen Baggage", comments on his earlier Bodhidharma translations, "How much of it was actually by Bodhidharma is unknown, but even scholars agree that the one called [Two Entrances and] Four Practices was most likely his." In his "The Bodhidharma Anthology", Jeffrey Broughton writes, "For decades discussion [by scholars] both Japanese and Western, has concentrated on the Two Entrances [and Four Practices], and has come to the consensus that only this text can be attributed to Bodhidharma."

Those who turn from delusion back to reality, who meditate [in "wall contemplation" in which self and other, ordinary person and sage, are one and the same], and who remain unmoved even by scriptures are in complete and unspoken agreement with [principle].

The meaning of "wall contemplation" (bìguan/pi-kuan) is long debated, but may mean (not literally "facing the wall" as often, and probably "too literally" and incorrectly professed in the Soto school), but rather to sit "as a wall sits", i.e., unperturbed by surrounding circumstances and the dusts of the senses. It may also mean something like to sit "abiding in illumination".

Even Master Linji. It is clear that meditation happened in his monastery, but he seemed to emphasize so with a "non-gaining" mind and a "non-learning" meditation of just "turning the light within":

“Bring to rest the thoughts of the ceaselessly seeking mind, and you will not differ from the patriarch-buddha. Do you want to know the patriarch-buddha? He is none other than you who stand before me listening to my discourse. But because you students lack faith in yourselves, you run around seeking something outside. Even if, through your seeking, you did find something, that something would be nothing more than fancy descriptions in written words; never would you gain the mind of the living patriarch.

...

“Virtuous monks, time is precious. And yet, hurrying hither and thither, you try to learn meditation, to study the Way, to accept names, to accept phrases, to seek buddha, to seek a patriarch, to seek a good teacher, to think and speculate.
“Make no mistake, followers of the Way! After all, you have a father and a mother—what more do you seek? Turn your own light inward upon yourselves!
A man of old said, Yajñadatta [thought he had] lost his head,
But when his seeking mind came to rest, he was at ease.
“Virtuous monks, just be ordinary. Don’t put on airs.

...

The master said, “It is because you cannot stop your mind which runs on seeking everywhere that a patriarch said, ‘Bah, superior men! Searching for your heads with your heads!’ When at these words you turn your own light in upon yourselves and never seek elsewhere, then you’ll know that your body and mind are not different from those of the patriarch-buddhas and on the instant have nothing to do—this is called ‘obtaining the dharma.’

Andrew, you ask:

To elaborate, this question is specifically about the practice-enlightenment equivalence in the Soto Zen tradition and not about the Buddhist tradition more generally.

When I review some of the older Zen texts (six patriarchs and pre-Soto material) I notice a handful of things:

1. They have more to do with expressing Zen through enigmatic sayings and situations

Well, not really. The "enigmatic sayings" in the Koans were typically written by later authors of the Song dynasty about figures who lived in the earlier Tang dynasty, and are mostly not considered historical records of events, and instead literary creations. As you can see, the earlier documents such as the Platform Sutra, Record of Rinzai and the like are comparatively easy to understand and are not in the style of "enigmatic phrases."

2. There is very little reference to formal seated meditation and some of the times they do refer to it they speak of it negatively

No. It is pretty clear that the meditation was part of the daily schedule at almost all Chan monasteries from the practice rules we have. There were statements, just as by Linji, against meditation done with gaining mind ("shuzen" or "learning meditation," the same criticism Dogen makes in the Fukanzazengi.) In fact, government authorities would have closed down any monastery viewed as so "lax" as to not be keeping the traditional monastic schedule. There is a good historian's paper on this which I will try to find for you.

3. Awakening is something that can happen in a moment such that a narration can conclude with it as the main event

No. Almost no teachers of the past held that one was fully awakened by one opening experience.

4. Some of this "chop wood, carry water, clean your bowl" stuff seems to be put into a context of defining the entire Buddha-Dharma rather than any refuge in Zazen, chanting, ritual, etc.

Sorry, I don't understand the question.

5. This early Chan material feels reminiscent of Taoist influence which could be a bit iconoclastic

Yes, there was a heavy Taoist influence, specifically from neo-Taoist Xuanxue practices and sensibilities, which perfumed Indian Buddhism to become Chan.

Do you have other concerns?

Sorry for writing long.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[A.J.]

You’re investigation is admirable. Always seek truth. As I have been taught. The dogma or dictation from our limitless masters is inconsequential. As the Buddha teaches, do no harm, seek truth, and purify your heart. Devotion to this leads towards fulfillment. May you be well tonight [emoji1317]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you for that.
Have a good night as well.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Insight579]

You’re investigation is admirable. Always seek truth. As I have been taught. The dogma or dictation from our limitless masters is inconsequential. As the Buddha teaches, do no harm, seek truth, and purify your heart. Devotion to this leads towards fulfillment. May you be well tonight [emoji1317]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[A.J.]

To elaborate, this question is specifically about the practice-enlightenment equivalence in the Soto Zen tradition and not about the Buddhist tradition more generally.

When I review some of the older Zen texts (six patriarchs and pre-Soto material) I notice a handful of things:

1. They have more to do with expressing Zen through enigmatic sayings and situations
2. There is very little reference to formal seated meditation and some of the times they do refer to it they speak of it negatively
3. Awakening is something that can happen in a moment such that a narration can conclude with it as the main event
4. Some of this "chop wood, carry water, clean your bowl" stuff seems to be put into a context of defining the entire Buddha-Dharma rather than any refuge in Zazen, chanting, ritual, etc.
5. This early Chan material feels reminiscent of Taoist influence which could be a bit iconoclastic

Finally, allowing for point of view expressed by way of personal commentary, I want to be clear that what I am primarily interested in is citations from before the time of Dogen (preferably from the six Chan patriarchs or around their time) that explicitly express the importance of Zazen, the equivalence of practice with enlightenment and other Dogen-esque views.

I had to be a little long to be thorough but the most direct answers to this question would simply be good quotations.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah