Did Dogen invent Shikantaza?

[A.J.]

You are starting to seem like a bit of a troll yourself, no? You ask questions, and want textual evidence, and some was provided.

But you don't provide any textual evidence that Shikantaza has no roots in the early Chan tradition as you assert. If you have some, please provide it.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

I listed considerations my question was based on but I did not make any claims about what the Zen tradition was in the early days for certain. The fact that you need to start with internet name-calling as a Zen priest demonstrates that you don't have room for discussion. No wonder you limit everyone to three sentences and then you go beyond that more than anyone. Between that and your tendency to shut people down you seem to have some kind of control problem. No wonder you started all that drama with the Hardcore Zen people a decade ago when Brad Warner wouldn't meet with you as you requested and then you made allegations that some other Zen priest punched you in the face. It's unfortunate that it's the people with the control issues who are motivated to get things like this going. I'm sure I'm not the first dissatisfied customer but your thread archives only go back as far as 2020. Good riddance. I won't be back.

[Seishin]

Just an observation on the last few posts.
1)Andrew do you not accept the various articles provided by Jundo as evidence that Shikantaza was being practiced long before Dogen?
2)If not can you provide evidence to the contrary to support this view?
3) Just sit.

Sat lah

Seishin

[Jundo]

Wow. That's actually a really bad attitude for a Zen priest... camouflaged as spirituality. That kind of approach definitely changes my view of your intentions with this forum.

You are starting to seem like a bit of a troll yourself, no? You ask questions, and want textual evidence, and some was provided.

But you don't provide any textual evidence that Shikantaza has no roots in the early Chan tradition as you assert. If you have some, please provide it.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jundo]

It's a little weird to say I'm wrong considering that I'm not making a claim.

What? What are you doing then? You are claiming that Dogen's Shikantaza has no like roots in the earlier tradition, and I showed you several famous quotes that preach "non-gaining" and a similar description of Zazen from the 9th century Platform Sutra.

The emphasis on Zazen in Dogen in contrast to the early material is still striking though I appreciate your few quotes.

You keep asserting some "contrast," but give no hint of what you mean.

And even if, for the devil's argument, Dogen invented Shikantaza wholly on his own with no earlier roots in Silent Illumination, that would still be a tradition of 800 years ... which is pretty good. That said, Dogen did not invent Shikantaza wholly on his own, and the roots to Hongzhi and the earlier Silent Illumination tradition are pretty clear, as historian John McRae describes in the first quote I put "How Zen Became Zen", p. 172-174):

The new Caodong tradition, then, seems to have simply adopted the type of meditation already common in Chan and elevated its importance. What made the silent illumination teachings of the Caodong tradition distinctive, therefore, was not the meditation technique or even its doctrinal underpinnings but its sustained, exhuberant celebration of inherent enlightenment and its persistent stress on stillness and de-emphasis on enlightenment as a breakthrough experience. In this way, the Caodong tradition did make meditation an end in itself: as long as meditation was approached correctly, nothing else was really needed. Thus, the silent illumination practice of the new Caodong tradition really did differentiate it from the rest of Chan ... . Even though the new Caodong tradition's teaching style was seen as distinctive, it did not entail, as I have argued above, a radical departure from earlier meditation techniques ...

It is a good book, you should read it.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

You make assertions, but you don't offer much evidence or facts or supporting texts on your side beside your bare assertions. Put up or shut up ... and sit!

Gassho, J

STLah

Wow. That's actually a really bad attitude for a Zen priest... camouflaged as spirituality. That kind of approach definitely changes my view of your intentions with this forum.

[A.J.]

But you are wrong, and I showed you such quotes. What is more "Shikantaza" than this from the Dunhuang Platform Sutra (Two copies dated to between 830 and 860):



In equanimity, peacefully and calm, beyond motion or stillness, dropping thought of birth and death, no coming or going, free of judgments of right or wrong.

And then we have the Shikantaza-like attitude of "non-attaining" from Linji and others.



The above can sound antinomian, as if he were rejecting meditation ... but there is ample evidence that they were meditating in the monastery. So, if they were meditating ... and he was teaching "nothing to gain" ... he seems to have been teaching meditation and all practice with a "nothing to gain" attitude.

When he did criticize meditation, it was to stifle all thoughts (not letting thoughts rise) or to attain special states:



The record of the past is pretty sketchy (gee, we are looking at scraps of text more than 1000 years old!), but it seems clear that (1) the old dudes generally meditated and (2) "non-seeking" was a very common teaching even back then.

Gassho, J

STLah

It's a little weird to say I'm wrong considering that I'm not making a claim.
The emphasis on Zazen in Dogen in contrast to the early material is still striking though I appreciate your few quotes.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

No. I'm not interested in finding proof of anything. I'm simply thinking about the development of Zen as a tradition.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

You make assertions, but you don't offer much evidence or facts or supporting texts on your side beside your bare assertions. Put up or shut up ... and sit!

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Is your point to find out "proof" that meditation is not needed for Enlightenment? When reading about Zen and it's old masters I found that all of them meditated (and a lot) though is seems like only Dogen described Shikantanza in such detail. The advice to go and wash your bowl as a practice is maybe necessary to help realise that Enlightenment is no different than ordinary life/samsara, weather you attain it on the cushion, cutting through a koan or stabbing your toe.

Gassho
Sat

No. I'm not interested in finding proof of anything. I'm simply thinking about the development of Zen as a tradition.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

I was reading a book on the history of zen and I came across a chapter that explains how zen divided between the northern and the southern school. One placed more importance on gradual training and the other said that enlightenment is instantaneous and does not depen upon meditation practice. The book is in Spanish tho. I am sure that other members can offer much material on the matter. Also, I am terrible at offering quotations, but I can say that from my personal perspective, Shikantaza is just a "formal" way to do Zazen. The key is to practice Zazen in everything. And if you sit in formal meditation for a while, you can tell the difference that it makes in comparison with just being mindful without actually sitting.

In terms of gaining understanding from the old geezers, what better geezer than Buddha himself, who heavily emphasized sitting meditation.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat

Sorry for going over 3 sentences.

That story of the differences between the so-called northern and southern traditions is overdone too, and half myth and sectarian politics. But that is a topic for another day.

One of the best recent and most honest, balanced treatments of Zen history is this publication, I very much recommend.

Book Review: The Circle of the Way -- A Concise History of Zen

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?17429-Book-Review-The-Circle-of-the-Way-A-Concise-History-of-Zen&highlight=barbara+circle

The author, Barbara O'Brien, came to Treeleaf awhile back to talk about the book:

Special Zazenkai with Writer-Zen Historian Barbara O'Brien

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?17872-ATTENTION-Special-Zazenkai-SUN-June-21st-with-Writer-Zen-Historian-Barbara-O-Brien

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

My point is merely to look for solid quotes that sound like Shikantaza well before Dogen.
Considering the heavy emphasis on Shikantaza it feels odd when reviewing some of the old geezers that it hardly comes up.
It also seems odd that records illustrating moments of awakening don't usually connect those moments with Zazen... hence the request for solid quotations and it looks at first glance like so far there are a few.

But you are wrong, and I showed you such quotes. What is more "Shikantaza" than this from the Dunhuang Platform Sutra (Two copies dated to between 830 and 860):

Be the same as you would if I were here, and sit all together in meditation. If you are only peacefully calm and quiet, without motion, without stillness, without birth, without destruction, without coming, without going, without judgments of right and wrong, without staying and without going-this then is the Great Way. After I have gone just practice according to the Dharma in the same way that you did on the days that I was with you.

In equanimity, peacefully and calm, beyond motion or stillness, dropping thought of birth and death, no coming or going, free of judgments of right or wrong.

And then we have the Shikantaza-like attitude of "non-attaining" from Linji and others.

“In my view there is no Buddha, no sentient beings, no past, no present. Anything attained was already attained—no time is needed. There is nothing to practice, nothing to realize, nothing to gain, nothing to lose. Throughout all time there is no other dharma than this. ‘If one claims there’s a dharma surpassing this, I say that it’s like a dream, like a phantasm.’ This is all I have to teach.

The above can sound antinomian, as if he were rejecting meditation ... but there is ample evidence that they were meditating in the monastery. So, if they were meditating ... and he was teaching "nothing to gain" ... he seems to have been teaching meditation and all practice with a "nothing to gain" attitude.

When he did criticize meditation, it was to stifle all thoughts (not letting thoughts rise) or to attain special states:

“There are a bunch of blind shavepates who, having stuffed themselves with food, sit down to meditate and practice contemplation. Arresting the flow of thought they don’t let it rise; they hate noise and seek stillness. This is the method of the heretics. A patriarch said, ‘If you stop the mind to look at stillness, arouse the mind to illumine outside, control the mind to clarify inside, concentrate the mind to enter samādhi—all such [practices] as these are artificial striving.’ [Jundo Note: This and several other quotes on not trying to still the flow of thoughts]

...

The master said, “It is because you cannot stop your mind which runs on seeking everywhere that a patriarch said, ‘Bah, superior men! Searching for your heads with your heads!’ When at these words you turn your own light in upon yourselves and never seek elsewhere, then you’ll know that your body and mind are not different from those of the patriarch-buddhas and on the instant have nothing to do—this is called ‘obtaining the dharma.’
https://web.archive.org/web/20160201...nji-sasaki.pdf

The record of the past is pretty sketchy (gee, we are looking at scraps of text more than 1000 years old!), but it seems clear that (1) the old dudes generally meditated and (2) "non-seeking" was a very common teaching even back then.

Sorry, a bit long.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tomás ESP]

I was reading a book on the history of zen and I came across a chapter that explains how zen divided between the northern and the southern school. One placed more importance on gradual training and the other said that enlightenment is instantaneous and does not depen upon meditation practice. The book is in Spanish tho. I am sure that other members can offer much material on the matter. Also, I am terrible at offering quotations, but I can say that from my personal perspective, Shikantaza is just a "formal" way to do Zazen. The key is to practice Zazen in everything. And if you sit in formal meditation for a while, you can tell the difference that it makes in comparison with just being mindful without actually sitting.

In terms of gaining understanding from the old geezers, what better geezer than Buddha himself, who heavily emphasized sitting meditation.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat

Sorry for going over 3 sentences.

[Inshin]

My point is merely to look for solid quotes that sound like Shikantaza well before Dogen.
Considering the heavy emphasis on Shikantaza it feels odd when reviewing some of the old geezers that it hardly comes up.
It also seems odd that records illustrating moments of awakening don't usually connect those moments with Zazen... hence the request for solid quotations and it looks at first glance like so far there are a few.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

Is your point to find out "proof" that meditation is not needed for Enlightenment? When reading about Zen and it's old masters I found that all of them meditated (and a lot) though is seems like only Dogen described Shikantanza in such detail. The advice to go and wash your bowl as a practice is maybe necessary to help realise that Enlightenment is no different than ordinary life/samsara, weather you attain it on the cushion, cutting through a koan or stabbing your toe.

Gassho
Sat

[Jundo]

Ps -

I believe Alan Watts also makes an argument that there was an early style that played down meditation (including Zazen) in "The Way of Zen" before the popularity of monasteries.

Alan Watts, writing 60 or 70 years ago before we had all the information and research we have today about Zen history, said many things that are totally unreliable. I would not take him as a source.

There was one particular group mentioned in Zongmi's descriptions of the early Chan schools of his time (8th century) that was so iconoclastic, and he criticized them for it, the infamous Wuzhu (https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/BaotangWuzhu.html). Other schools advocated various forms of practice and meditation. As this paper on Zongmi's list states:

The rebellious, anti-textual, anti-ceremonial, anti-institutional tendency in Zen Buddhism, as generally known to Western students, is only part of the Ch'an complex. In other words, the objections to the reading of scriptures, to the study of dogmatics, to worship and sitting in meditation, were only supported by certain sects of the Ch'an school, at a certain time, but were not at all universal. In this respect, the contribution of Tsung-mi is indeed unique: he analysed the sects without sectarian sentiment, and insisted on the metaphysical foundations of Ch'an practice.

...

https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Tsung-Mi-His-Analysis-of-Chan-Buddhism.pdf

So, meditation was quite common. There were a variety of meditation approaches, however. One stream developed into "silent illumination," and there seemed to be a strong "non-seeking" flavor within that. So, Shikantaza may be said to be playing on that theme.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

The version I quoted from is considered the oldest and most basic version we have before later elaborations and expansions, i.e., the Dunhuang version translated by Yampolsky.

https://terebess.hu/zen/PlatformYampolsky.pdf

Momentless moments of awakening can happen during Zazen, or in the garden, stubbing one's toe, seeing a peach blossom. What is your point? Zazen is merely practice which sets the ground for awakening.



Sorry, Zazen is Zazen, and then life is most ordinary. This is the lesson too in all of Master Dogen's writings.

Here is a late, additional entry. Master Rinzai's teacher Huanbo, translated by McRae



Gassho, J

STLah

My point is merely to look for solid quotes that sound like Shikantaza well before Dogen.
Considering the heavy emphasis on Shikantaza it feels odd when reviewing some of the old geezers that it hardly comes up.
It also seems odd that records illustrating moments of awakening don't usually connect those moments with Zazen... hence the request for solid quotations and it looks at first glance like so far there are a few.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

Regarding the Platform Sutra: I've read that this text has had a long evolution, undergoing multiple redactions and is full of interpolations so I'm not sure if Dogen-esque sounding language should count in that case.

The version I quoted from is considered the oldest and most basic version we have before later elaborations and expansions, i.e., the Dunhuang version translated by Yampolsky.

https://terebess.hu/zen/PlatformYampolsky.pdf

By moments of awakening I didn't think those old writings were referring to absolute awakening but definitely some distinct experiences (rather than gradual) and interestingly enough it doesn't look like they are usually connected with Zazen.

Momentless moments of awakening can happen during Zazen, or in the garden, stubbing one's toe, seeing a peach blossom. What is your point? Zazen is merely practice which sets the ground for awakening.

When asked the meaning of Zen (or some equivalent question) it also seems somewhat conspicuous that answers like "clean your bowl" come up rather than "the meaning of Zen is obviously Zazen".

Sorry, Zazen is Zazen, and then life is most ordinary. This is the lesson too in all of Master Dogen's writings.

Here is a late, additional entry. Master Rinzai's teacher Huanbo, translated by McRae

Furthermore, at all times and in every moment of thought don’t perceive all the characteristics and don’t recognize past, [present,] and future, the three periods of time. The past does not go, the present does not abide, and the future does not come. Sitting peacefully upright, letting things happen as they will—only then may you be called liberated.
https://www.scribd.com/document/2349...ission-of-Mind

Gassho, J

STLah