Did Dogen invent Shikantaza?

[Juki]

Wowsers. Dharma combat.

Gassho,
Juki

Sat today and lah

[nknibbs]

I was actually very much appreciating reading Jundo's answers to all those questions. Many of those questions were excellent, despite the elaborate gymnastics that were required in order to find reasons to reject them. Nine bows to A.J. for asking questions I wouldn't have thought of, and nine bows to Jundo for being far more patient than I would have.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

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Nick
SatLah

[Kyoshin]

Ah, I like Brad. I don't agree with everything he says but he has shown a long and genuine commitment to Zen and practice.

As well as more traditional teachers, we need those who have a willingness to take a different tack and I imagine Brad has brought a distinct group of people to Soto that might not have come by other routes.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

I will also jump to Brad's defense. I don't always agree with him, but then I don't always agree with Jundo either. [emoji2369] For all his faults, I think Brad is a dedicated practitioner and fills an important niche with his books; very few zen authors manage to write books that are so substantive while also unpretentious and approachably easy to read.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah.

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[Kyoshin]

I was actually very much appreciating reading Jundo's answers to all those questions. Many of those questions were excellent, despite the elaborate gymnastics that were required in order to find reasons to reject them. Nine bows to A.J. for asking questions I wouldn't have thought of, and nine bows to Jundo for being far more patient than I would have.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

[Kokuu]

Brad Warner strikes me as someone who would burn in one of the hells described by Hakuin in Wild Ivy.

Ah, I like Brad. I don't agree with everything he says but he has shown a long and genuine commitment to Zen and practice.

As well as more traditional teachers, we need those who have a willingness to take a different tack and I imagine Brad has brought a distinct group of people to Soto that might not have come by other routes.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Doshin]

Much said while I slept. Much learned with my first cup of coffee. Also learned a new word “erudite” so thank you Ania and Google.

Doshin
St

[Inshin]

I listed considerations my question was based on but I did not make any claims about what the Zen tradition was in the early days for certain. The fact that you need to start with internet name-calling as a Zen priest demonstrates that you don't have room for discussion. No wonder you limit everyone to three sentences and then you go beyond that more than anyone. Between that and your tendency to shut people down you seem to have some kind of control problem. No wonder you started all that drama with the Hardcore Zen people a decade ago when Brad Warner wouldn't meet with you as you requested and then you made allegations that some other Zen priest punched you in the face. It's unfortunate that it's the people with the control issues who are motivated to get things like this going. I'm sure I'm not the first dissatisfied customer but your thread archives only go back as far as 2020. Good riddance. I won't be back.

Brad Warner strikes me as someone who would burn in one of the hells described by Hakuin in Wild Ivy.
Gassho
Sat

[Bion]

One more point on one of Andrew's questions ...



There happen to be some early Taoist and Confucian meditation forms which may smack of Silent Illumination and Shikantaza too. I have not seen anyone connect them directly to Zazen, but there was much Taoist-Confucian-Buddhist interchange in those early centuries. It may simply indicate that seekers in various traditions just sometimes do things in similar ways. Details are also elusive, but one is called Jing zuo (靜坐), or "quiet sitting." I am not expert, but here are a few pages that describe it a bit:

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=rPONDgAAQBAJ&pg=PT241&lpg=PT241&dq=Jing+zuo%E9%9D%9C%E5%9D%90+sitting&source=bl&ots=aWXGyYyBoh&sig=ACfU3U3ZIYJ3XFmtFvThmxMT2Lym1gkLfQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjhyKyAxOPrAhXDAYgKHaknCZA4ChDoATACegQIARAB#v=onepage&q=Jing%20zuo%E9%9D%9C%E5%9D%90%20sitting&f=false

Gassho, J

STLah

People like Andrew have an issue with understanding the practice of Zen because they are ignorant about the nature of the teachings and the origin of it all.

Seeking to prove or disprove Zen practice while not being engaged in ANY kind of practice, but merely studying it from an academic perspective, is a futile thing. I’ve seen and dealt with people with the same attitude, who were ready to bite anyone’s head off when it came to defending there was NOTHING to do in Zen, yet they had never sat zazen, never chanted a sutra, never had a proper conversation with someone where they actually listened instead of argue.

The practice of Buddhism and Zen is something that stems from the universal truth of the dharma. Three thousand people scattered around the world unaware of each other can reach the exact same understanding and have the same realizations IF they truly practice the Buddha way even if unaware of it.

No one taught Sidharta how to sit zazen or how to attain enlightenment. He did it on his own like countless Buddhas before him, because it is a natural thing and ingrained in us.

Sorry about the extra sentences. I just wanted to make these few comment because for weeks now I’ve witnessed the attitude coming from AJ and I’ve avoided replying on purpose.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Jundo]

One more point on one of Andrew's questions ...

5. This early Chan material feels reminiscent of Taoist influence which could be a bit iconoclastic

There happen to be some early Taoist and Confucian meditation forms which may smack of Silent Illumination and Shikantaza too. I have not seen anyone connect them directly to Zazen, but there was much Taoist-Confucian-Buddhist interchange in those early centuries. It may simply indicate that seekers in various traditions just sometimes do things in similar ways. Details are also elusive, but one is called Jing zuo (靜坐), or "quiet sitting." I am not expert, but here are a few pages that describe it a bit:

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=rPONDgAAQBAJ&pg=PT241&lpg=PT241&dq=Jing+zuo%E9%9D%9C%E5%9D%90+sitting&source=bl&ots=aWXGyYyBoh&sig=ACfU3U3ZIYJ3XFmtFvThmxMT2Lym1gkLfQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjhyKyAxOPrAhXDAYgKHaknCZA4ChDoATACegQIARAB#v=onepage&q=Jing%20zuo%E9%9D%9C%E5%9D%90%20sitting&f=false

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

And this is the world we live in, in which the art of civil discussion and substantiating claims with evidence is a lost art. Alas.

Please come back and sit with us any time.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

PS - For point of disclosure, our archives here go back to 2006 and are fully searchable. You must have been doing something wrong. A priest who was having some personal issues gave me a shove, not a punch, when I made the mistake of trying to make peace among some people, but that was in 2010, now more than 10 years ago. I like to say that, if that is the only "scandal" that someone can come up with for my 20 years online ... that some of the angry "Dharma Punks" on Brad's old blog took after me, and someone gave me a shove at a meeting ... then I am doing pretty good.

[Inshin]

I listed considerations my question was based on but I did not make any claims about what the Zen tradition was in the early days for certain. The fact that you need to start with internet name-calling as a Zen priest demonstrates that you don't have room for discussion. No wonder you limit everyone to three sentences and then you go beyond that more than anyone. Between that and your tendency to shut people down you seem to have some kind of control problem. No wonder you started all that drama with the Hardcore Zen people a decade ago when Brad Warner wouldn't meet with you as you requested and then you made allegations that some other Zen priest punched you in the face. It's unfortunate that it's the people with the control issues who are motivated to get things like this going. I'm sure I'm not the first dissatisfied customer but your thread archives only go back as far as 2020. Good riddance. I won't be back.

Are you dealing with some sort of unresolved rejection? You seem very erudite and well read. Zen was never a soft way of cuddling the ego, if you'd approached an ancient "old geezer" Zen Master like you did, he would probably smack your head to shake all the knowledge out and make you feel it instead. What ware you seeking here?
Metta to you.
Gassho
Sat

[Meitou]

I feel like A.J. already had an agenda when he started this thread. Unfortunate.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

I think he had one when he joined. I also offer Metta.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

[Kokuu]

Wow. That's actually a really bad attitude for a Zen priest... camouflaged as spirituality. That kind of approach definitely changes my view of your intentions with this forum.

On reading the stories of old masters, you will doubtless notice that Zen teachers often directly challenge other Zen folk. By the measure of those interactions, Jundo is a pussycat.

It looks to me like a gentle admonition that the intellectual stuff has run its course and it is time to sit.

The advice to go and wash your bowl as a practice is maybe necessary to help realise that Enlightenment is no different than ordinary life/samsara, weather you attain it on the cushion, cutting through a koan or stabbing your toe.

I also think 'clean your bowl' is a metaphor for approaching each moment fresh rather than with baggage of what has gone before.


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Seishin]

I listed considerations my question was based on but I did not make any claims about what the Zen tradition was in the early days for certain. The fact that you need to start with internet name-calling as a Zen priest demonstrates that you don't have room for discussion. No wonder you limit everyone to three sentences and then you go beyond that more than anyone. Between that and your tendency to shut people down you seem to have some kind of control problem. No wonder you started all that drama with the Hardcore Zen people a decade ago when Brad Warner wouldn't meet with you as you requested and then you made allegations that some other Zen priest punched you in the face. It's unfortunate that it's the people with the control issues who are motivated to get things like this going. I'm sure I'm not the first dissatisfied customer but your thread archives only go back as far as 2020. Good riddance. I won't be back.

And now the hidden agenda is revealed. Very disapointing. I will sit for Andrew and offer metta.

Sat lah

Seishin

[Tomás ESP]

I feel like A.J. already had an agenda when he started this thread. Unfortunate.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH