What are "the sayings of the old Masters?"

[Ryumon]

I've been reading the Shobogenzo Zuimonki lately, in the translation called A Primer of Soto Zen. Here's a quote:

The student must above all separate himself from concepts of the Self. To separate from views of the Self means not to cling to this body. Even though you study deeply the sayings of the old Masters and practice zazen, remaining as immobile as stone or iron, you will never gain the Way of the Buddhas and the Patriarchs, even if you try for endless eons, unless you can free yourself from attachment to the body.

What are "the sayings of the old Masters?" Does this mean koans?

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[Kokuu]

Hi Kirk

My guess would be any kind of teachings from masters of the past but that is just a guess and you may be right that it specifically refers to koans.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Onka]

Hi Kirk
I interpreted this more broadly in thinking that the old sayings is the Dharma in general. It wouldn't surprise me if I was way off though.
Gassho
Onka
ST

[Ryumon]

I was wondering if it’s a phrase that has a certain meaning; I don’t recall coming across it before.

Gassho,

Kirk

Sat and read.

[Jundo]

Hi Kirk,

That is the Prof. Reiho Masunaga translation of Zuimonki 4-3.

https://terebess.hu/zen/dogen/primer.pdf

(Note: The Rev. Okumura version is similar (https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/com...nki/04-03.html), except he substitutes "personal views" for Masunaga's "concepts of the Self." The Japanese for the first line is "亦示して云く、學人の第一の用心は、先づ我見を離るべし (https://eiheizen.jimdofree.com/%E6%A...%98-%E7%B6%9A/) with the operative word being 我見. I think that Masunaga is the better translation, because Okumura's words sound like they could simply mean "personal opinions," when it is clearly "a view of there being, or which comes from, a sense of a "self" http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin...88%91%E8%A6%8B (log in: guest/guest)).

The meaning becomes clearer if we look at 4-3 in its entirety:

On another occasion Dogen instructed:

The student must above all separate himself from concepts of the Self. To separate from views of the Self means not to cling to this body. Even though you study deeply the sayings of the old Masters and practice zazen, remaining as immobile as stone or iron, you will never gain the Way of the Buddhas and the Patriarchs, even if you try for endless eons, unless you can free yourself from attachment to the body. No matter how well you say you know the true and provisional teachings or the esoteric and exoteric doctrines [of Buddhism], as long as you possess a mind that clings to the body, you will be vainly counting others’ treasures, without gaining even half a cent for yourself.

I ask only that you students sit quietly and examine with true insight the beginnings and end of this human body. The body, hair, and skin are the products of the union of our parents. When the breathing stops, the body is scattered amid mountains and fields and finally turns to earth and mud. Why then do you attach to this body? Viewed from the Buddhist standpoint, the body is no more than the accumulation and dispersal of the eighteen realms of sense. [The six sense-organs are the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, the tactile body, and the mind, with their respective sense fields and consciousnesses] Which realm should we pick out and identify as our
body? While differences exist between Zen and other teachings, they agree in that, in the practice of the Way, emphasis is placed on the impermanence of the human body. Once you penetrate this truth, true Buddhism manifests itself clearly.

He pretty clearly means any old Buddhist teachings, not only the Koans. (It is a pretty standard phrase, by the way, not unusual). He means that, even if you studied all the old teachings, and even if you sit Zazen like a rock, unless you experience and get past the idea of being "you" inside a body, and having a sense of being a separate, individual "self," you are not going to really understand anything, including the teachings and what Zazen is about.

Sorry, needed to run a little long.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Ryumon]

He pretty clearly means any old Buddhist teachings, not only the Koans. (It is a pretty standard phrase, by the way, not unusual).

That's exactly what I was wondering. I had never encountered it before, and perhaps if I had, I simply hadn't noticed it, or it was phrased differently. It's the "sayings" that made me wonder about it.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[Jundo]

That's exactly what I was wondering. I had never encountered it before, and perhaps if I had, I simply hadn't noticed it, or it was phrased differently. It's the "sayings" that made me wonder about it.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

Yes, it is just "古人の語話" ... "what the people of old/ old timers said."

That is not to be confused with "what the old guys say," which is more like you and me doing the podcast.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Getchi]

Jundo, holy crap.

Thankyou for that, please startbabforum design gned just from dharma wonks.

SatToday
LaH

-geoff