How much of dharma is upaya?

[Jundo]

It does seem that upaya becomes a framework for interpreting layers of tradition that don't quite fit with the present tradition at the time because while Mahayana interpreted "Hinayana" in retrospect I'm pretty sure Vajrayana did the same thing to explain discrepancies with Mahayana.

For sure: "Upaya" (skillful means) was a very nice way for later Buddhists to say, "Well, we don't really agree with all the teachings of early Buddhism exactly as they are presented, and we can't say the Buddha (or whoever wrote down the South Asian version of the teachings) was 'wrong,' so we will just say that he "was making different versions of the teachings for different needs." It is a nice way of rectifying the differences.

And, in fact, different versions of the teachings ARE suited to different people, with some benefiting more from X presentation, and others from Y presentation, so it is true: Different medicines for different needs.

Part of this is also that I'm trying to pin down what sort of teacher Buddha is thought to have been, i.e. is he a spiritual philosopher propounding truths to be absolutely proven by the minds of the students or is he a pragmatist delivering remedies to treat one ailment or another depending on the audience or time?

Choose the Buddha(s) you wish, who resonate with your needs, the medicine for you. Only a terrible physician would hand out the exact same prescription to every patient who came through the door, whether a cancer patient or someone with a broken foot.

If someone living had what they took to be some sort of vision of the bardo we wouldn't be able to deny their experience per se but could question how the experience is interpreted, therefore while I am inclined by my own experience and thought to believe there is something real to the sunyata idea I recognize that experience is one thing, whereas interpretation (including the interpretation that my insightful experience is objective reality) is another.

Refrigerator is an idea, I cannot be sure if I am dreaming it; Buddhist Ice Hell (https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/b...doc225388.html) is an idea, I cannot be totally sure if it exists or not. However, the former seems to keep my milk cold (also possibly imagined), while the latter seems to defy what I understand about the laws of physics and various other things, and though some vision of it might be had in meditation practice, I see little evidence for it, it seems as likely as not to be someone's fanciful imagining or meditative hallucination, so I am more skeptical about "ice hell" than refrigerators. The former does not keep my imaginary milk cold. Likewise, "Sunayata" seems to be something I can envision in a dream AND which seems actually to be born out with what physics, chemistry and modern brain science tells us about the inter-identity of phenomena, AND it actually seems to cure the heart of friction, conflict and suffering ... so I think it real. No, it does not keep my milk cold either, but it has other verifiable uses.

Someone else may find value in their belief in "ice hell" or flying Buddhas in the sky, and so I honor their right to find value there. Good for them if that is the "expedient" prescription that benefits them. Frankly, if you want examples of "holy lies" that are told to people in order to inspire, I say it is precisely such miracle stories ... whether of Jesus or Gautama. The wild stories of the Lotus Sutra themselves are such "holy lies," yet they have wonderful value as parables even if we don't take them literally.

(pardon more than 3 sentences)

Gassho, J

STLah

Buddhist Hell (I could not find a picture of a cold one, so we will make do with fire and brimstone):

[Jundo]

I should be specific about my guessing around here on the Vajrayana (since I don't have much experience with it): in some tantric texts I've read strange things like the ritual consumption of excrement and sexual fluids and although those behaviors aren't that popular I figured that because sexuality along with other oddities are present in those texts that there had do be some modified understanding of the Mahayana.

Much more likely Indian Shavism ... Brahman/Hindu transgressive beliefs in the religion of Lord Shiva ... which flooded into Buddhism in the early centuries C.E.

http://www.sutrajournal.com/the-tantric-age-a-comparison-of-shaiva-and-buddhist-tantra-by-christopher-wallis

It was then wrapped in Buddhist clothes and, yes, I am sure that they could interpret some Mahayana literature in extreme ways to find that common ground.

Not my cup of tea (or bile), and I don't care much for it as a practice, but maybe it works for someone as their Upaya.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

For sure: "Upaya" (skillful means) was a very nice way for later Buddhists to say, "Well, we don't really agree with all the teachings of early Buddhism exactly as they are presented, and we can't say the Buddha (or whoever wrote down the South Asian version of the teachings) was 'wrong,' so we will just say that he "was making different versions of the teachings for different needs." It is a nice way of rectifying the differences.

And, in fact, different versions of the teachings ARE suited to different people, with some benefiting more from X presentation, and others from Y presentation, so it is true: Different medicines for different needs.



Choose the Buddha(s) you wish, who resonated with your needs, the medicine for you. Only a terrible physician would hand out the exact same prescription to every patient who came through the door, whether a cancer patient or someone with a broken foot.



Refrigerator is an idea, I cannot be sure if I am dreaming it; Buddhist Ice Hell (https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/b...doc225388.html) is an idea, I cannot be totally sure if it exists or not. However, the former seems to keep my milk cold (also possibly imagined), while the latter seems to defy what I understand about the laws of physics and various other things, and though some vision of it might be had in meditation practice, I see little evidence for it, it seems as likely as not to be someone's fanciful imagining or meditative hallucination, so I am more skeptical about "ice hell" than refrigerators. The former does not keep my imaginary milk cold. Likewise, "Sunayata" seems to be something I can envision in a dream AND which seems actually to be born out with what physics, chemistry and modern brain science tells us about the inter-identity of phenomena, AND it actually seems to cure the heart of friction, conflict and suffering ... so I think it real. No, it does not keep my milk cold either, but it has other verifiable uses.

Someone else may find value in their belief in "ice hell" or flying Buddhas in the sky, and so I honor their right to find value there. Good for them if that is the "expedient" prescription that benefits them. Frankly, if you want examples of "holy lies" that are told to people in order to inspire, I say it is precisely such miracle stories ... whether of Jesus or Gautama. The wild stories of the Lotus Sutra themselves are such "holy lies," yet they have wonderful value as parables even if we don't take them literally.

(pardon more than 3 sentences)

Gassho, J

STLah

Buddhist Hell (I could not find a picture of a cold one, so we will make do with fire and brimstone):

The reasons you gave for sunyata along with my own personal investigations are why I'm inclined to think that the word (in itself only an idea) points to something real about reality.

I just mention the distinction between spiritual experiences and common sense realities because while the one requires special engagements, (involvement in a practice or some such) the other is obvious in a way that doesn't require anything special.

Cool picture... I'm thinking of floors and walls made of dry ice where the naked damned have no where to sit.


Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Much more likely Indian Shavism ... Brahman/Hindu transgressive beliefs in the religion of Lord Shiva ... which flooded into Buddhism in the early centuries C.E.

http://www.sutrajournal.com/the-tantric-age-a-comparison-of-shaiva-and-buddhist-tantra-by-christopher-wallis

It was then wrapped in Buddhist clothes and, yes, I am sure that they could interpret some Mahayana literature in extreme ways to find that common ground.

Not my cup of tea (or bile), and I don't care much for it as a practice, but maybe it works for someone as their Upaya.

Gassho, J

STLah

Coming back to peaches and poo...
that might be a great way to go beyond craving and aversion... joking...
but that might have actually been their idea.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

The reasons you gave for sunyata along with my own personal investigations are why I'm inclined to think that the word (in itself only an idea) points to something real about reality.

I just mention the distinction between spiritual experiences and common sense realities because while the one requires special engagements, (involvement in a practice or some such) the other is obvious in a way that doesn't require anything special.

Cool picture... I'm thinking of floors and walls made of dry ice where the naked damned have no where to sit.


Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

A.J., maybe you are a little too tied up in debate and intellectualizing for Zen practice?

It is a fine line between intellectual curiosity and discussion, and tangles of philosophizing which actually stand in the way of clarity, so be cautious!

Hard to explain, but our way is a bit like eating an apple, savoring an apple, perhaps lightly asking and discussing about the source of the apple and commenting on how sweet it is ... vs. debating so much "what is an apple?" "why is an apple not an orange?" "is the apple empty or is there an actual apple?" "which is the original apple, and which apple is truer than other apples?" and "are apples upaya?" that one fails to be still, quiet and actually taste the apple.

Thus, Middle Way, ask fewer questions and savor the sweet apple more, don't fall into an intellectual trap!

(a sentence past 3)

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

A.J., maybe you are a little too tied up in debate and intellectualizing for Zen practice?

It is a fine line between intellectual curiosity and discussion, and tangles of philosophizing which actually stand in the way of clarity, so be cautious!

Hard to explain, but our way is a bit like eating an apple, savoring an apple, perhaps lightly asking and discussing about the source of the apple and commenting on how sweet it is ... vs. debating so much "what is an apple" "why is an apple not an orange" "is the apple empty or is there an actual apple" and "are apples upaya" that one fails to be still, quiet and actually taste the apple.

Thus, Middle Way, ask fewer questions and savor the sweet apple more, don't fall into an intellectual trap!

(a sentence past 3)

Gassho, J

STLah

In the past I've thoroughly enjoyed Zen practice in temples and studying Zen material but I don't consider anything to be the be-all, end-all to stop all questions and thoughts.

Zen is part of a received tradition with a long history and libraries worth of texts so although I happily accept that ultimate reality is beyond words and letters I also accept that we are people of words and letters.

I'm not interested in debate but I am interested in cogent discussion that may involve interacting with different points of view with the goal of getting a better understanding of whatever topic is at hand.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

I've also found old Zen writings that were more argumentative and dogmatic than I would ever dream of being.

And philosophy is but the love of wisdom i.e. Plato's Cave, not to be confused with sophism.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Onka]

Hi AJ
I'm a new student of Zen Buddhism AND a new practitioner of the Buddha Dharma.
I read your posts with interest and genuine intellectual wonder, mainly because I am a new student. As a practioner I want to yell "READ LESS. SIT MORE" because my own practice is ridiculously simple but the irony would be as thick as Turkish coffee considering my verbosity.
I ask you respectfully whether you see yourself as a student of Buddhism or a practitioner? Or like I'm aiming to be, both?
I'm hoping to evolve into both myself as the years go by but until I can interact with you intellectually on Zen and Buddhism may I ask as a new practitioner to take note of Jundo's softly softly approach to offering advice.
Gassho
Onka
Sat today

[A.J.]

Hi AJ
I'm a new student of Zen Buddhism AND a new practitioner of the Buddha Dharma.
I read your posts with interest and genuine intellectual wonder, mainly because I am a new student. As a practioner I want to yell "READ LESS. SIT MORE" because my own practice is ridiculously simple but the irony would be as thick as Turkish coffee considering my verbosity.
I ask you respectfully whether you see yourself as a student of Buddhism or a practitioner? Or like I'm aiming to be, both?
I'm hoping to evolve into both myself as the years go by but until I can interact with you intellectually on Zen and Buddhism may I ask as a new practitioner to take note of Jundo's softly softly approach to offering advice.
Gassho
Onka
Sat today

I have a fairly regular meditation practice, when I lived near Sanghas I often attended several times a week for several years and I have been reading Buddhist material (mostly going back to ancient sources in translation) for several years, so all in all I would have to say practitioner and student.

On the student side I have developed a build up of questions and issues with various aspects of Buddhism for which I am looking for points of view.
On the practicing side I sit when I sit, think when I think and write when I write.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

I'm not interested in debate but I am interested in cogent discussion that may involve interacting with different points of view with the goal of getting a better understanding of whatever topic is at hand.

I enjoy cogent discussion and questioning too, as you can tell. Yet there comes a time when we put it aside, for it seems like the "baskets and snares" of intellectual tangles are getting in the way of savoring the apple, spying the moon, practicing Zen. It is hard to tell where that line is, but I feel that we should be more aware of that around our discussions: Oh, how the moonlight shines upon the beautiful apple!

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

On the practicing side I sit when I sit, think when I think and write when I write.

Please sit each day before you come here to chat, chat for awhile and address a question or two briefly ... then we sweep the floor, chop some wood, savor the apple, sit Zazen again.

Many aspects of zen can be understood by simplifying the debate and ideas, yet we do not want to be ill informed and unquestioning either. The middle way please.

Gassho, J

STLah

[gaurdianaq]

I will say this, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to look deep into these sorts of things, but on the other side of things. I believe these sorts of questions will never have a truly satisfying answer either. Even the things we consider to be "common sense realities" can come into question if looked at in the right way. At one point in time, it was considered common sense that the earth was flat and that there was a finite distance beyond the planet that existed. To consider otherwise was to be considered delusional. And there are some scientific theories that suggest our own universe might be a simulation!


Evan,
Sat today

[A.J.]

Please sit each day before you come here to chat, chat for awhile and address a question or two briefly ... then we sweep the floor, chop some wood, savor the apple, sit Zazen again.

Many aspects of zen can be understood by simplifying the debate and ideas, yet we do not want to be ill informed and unquestioning either. The middle way please.

Gassho, J

STLah

I sit for forty to an hour each day and always well before any kind of internet usage. If you have a suggested practice other than that I'd consider it.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

I enjoy cogent discussion and questioning too, as you can tell. Yet there comes a time when we put it aside, for it seems like the "baskets and snares" of intellectual tangles are getting in the way of savoring the apple, spying the moon, practicing Zen. It is hard to tell where that line is, but I feel that we should be more aware of that around our discussions: Oh, how the moonlight shines upon the beautiful apple!

Gassho, J

STLah

I don't consider defining terms, parsing distinctions in what is the case, or evaluating historical practices and ideas intellectual snares. To me it is just trying to understand and I find I learn more if I'm not contented automatically with the first answer on its face. Question and answer time doesn't cultivate understanding but prying for why the answer is the answer is what cultivates understanding.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

I will say this, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to look deep into these sorts of things, but on the other side of things. I believe these sorts of questions will never have a truly satisfying answer either. Even the things we consider to be "common sense realities" can come into question if looked at in the right way. At one point in time, it was considered common sense that the earth was flat and that there was a finite distance beyond the planet that existed. To consider otherwise was to be considered delusional. And there are some scientific theories that suggest our own universe might be a simulation!


Evan,
Sat today

I would need evidence that the world is a simulation. Some supposed theories don't validate an idea till there is a positive reason to believe it. People thought the world was flat because that was all they could see with the evidence they had at hand and people changed their minds when evidence came to the contrary, therefore I do not believe we are in a quandary of uncertainty about everything.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah