How do I deal with this long pattern of behavior?

[Tomás ESP]

To make it brief: I choose a community and/or Buddhist tradition, I practice for a few days/weeks, feel great about it, feel convinced that this is my path and then the thought process kicks in: Oh! That new book/dharma talk/whatever is telling me things that make me feel great and my current practice no longer makes me feel great. Maybe I should join them. I investigate a bit and if everything seems good, I try it out. Repeat the whole process x100. This has been going on for 8 years (I have transitioned from Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana multiple times) and is the first time that I am talking about it openly with a community. I think I haven't until now because I feel a bit of shame about it. I really do feel a strong pull to Soto Zen, I always have. But my mind keeps telling me to explore more stuff, as if there was going to be a definitive moment where I would feel good at all times within a community/practice guidance. Obviously, these expectations are not realistic, but the mind is incredibly persuasive and, sometimes, when my mindfulness is low, it lures me in and I fall for it.

It's almost as if I feel a "high" when I finally choose a community and practice, and when the feeling fades, I am looking for the next one. Shikantaza has felt genuinely good with this, because it helps me just be with whatever arises. But when I go on my regular day, the mind keeps trying to lure me in with strong anxiety and sensations of urgency.

I have undergone previous psychological treatment and I am a general health psychologist myself. Overall my life is going well and I do not wish to undergo more therapy, because this is the only issue that is bugging me at the moment (other than the whole uncertainty due to the Covid situation). Any perspective from the point of view of this tradition will be more than welcome. Thank you for understanding.

Gassho,
Sat

[Risho]

Sounds like a concept called "Spiritual Materialism" discussed in the book where I stole that term from by Chogyam Trungpa

Here's the deal - ultimately, no one can tell you what your path in life should be; you will find people who can help you along the way like here at Treeleaf - who can practice with you - sort of like friends along the path.

But only you know in your heart what the path is - and once you choose it, you need to see it through. I mean it's up to you, but if you really want to practice you gotta stick to the path. When we flit around to different things I think the novelty keeps things interesting, but it's when things get boring that I think practice becomes interesting. When you don't want to do it, you do it anyway. It's only by doing that - despite our feelings - that we keep going. That's when this useless practice seeps into our bones. I mean this is so useless if you are doing it only for a rush or a kick or a dopamine spike, that's not it. So when you don't want to do it because you realize there's nothing to gain here, and keep on keeping on, man that's it!

Even though we have to do this practice, it isn't for us. But at the same time, these are just words. You have to figure that out - sometimes leaving the path is the path; you can never leave, there is no place to go. So once you do find your home, stay there no matter how you feel about it day to day. Only you can do this practice.

Anyhoo just some thoughts from a 3 sentence rule violator

gassho

rish
-stlah

PS hopefully you actually do want to do it and enjoy the practice - but you know what I mean lol

[Kokuu]

But only you know in your heart what the path is - and once you choose it, you need to see it through. I mean it's up to you, but if you really want to practice you gotta stick to the path. When we flit around to different things I think the novelty keeps things interesting, but it's when things get boring that I think practice becomes interesting.

Yeah, Risho has it right.

The Buddha himself named five hindrances that arise during practice:

1. Sensual Desire
2. Ill-will (anger, pushing things away)
3. Sloth and Torpor
4. Restlessness and Remorse
5. Doubt

It sounds like you are doing well with a couple of those and rest assured they appear to have been a part of practice for at least 2 500 years! They are all part of the human experience, and some part of the ego's attempt to stop us from sitting and go in search of the next short-term pleasure instead.

Our approach is to just sit with each one as it arises and not buy into it or make a story around it. As one teacher said - everything arises, everything falls away - and as we practice more we get familiar with each of these states and familiar with sitting with them.

They are neither good nor bad, just experiences.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Risho]

Thank you Kokuu!- I always forget about the 5 hindrances, and I find them oddly inspirational because these are all normal . If it means anything to anyone my poisons of choice are 2 and 5. I really struggle with those, but all good practice

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Kokuu]

If it means anything to anyone my poisons of choice are 2 and 5. I really struggle with those, but all good practice

I am more of a 1 and 4 guy but it is interesting how most of us have our own particular 'poisons' when it comes to sitting and we can see them turn up again and again!

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[breathe]

Very helpful thread, thank you. I am three days here at Treeleaf, and I encounter the same “bright, shiny, and new” feeling that pulls me in. I recently read that Jukai will start here soon, and I thought, oh good!Some new practice for me to undertake! Instead I’ll just keep sitting and abiding. See what unfolds.


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[Tomás ESP]

It's only by doing that - despite our feelings - that we keep going. That's when this useless practice seeps into our bones. I mean this is so useless if you are doing it only for a rush or a kick or a dopamine spike, that's not it. So when you don't want to do it because you realize there's nothing to gain here, and keep on keeping on, man that's it!

This was incredibly helpful. It reminds me of an interview with Shohaku Okumura that was shared on the forum a few days ago. Zazen is good for nothing. Literally, just sitting. Thank you.

Gassho,
Sat&LaH

[Tomás ESP]

The Buddha himself named five hindrances that arise during practice:

1. Sensual Desire
2. Ill-will (anger, pushing things away)
3. Sloth and Torpor
4. Restlessness and Remorse
5. Doubt

Thank you for sharing them! I have read about these multiple times, but it's interesting how they have changed through time. Before going into the whole chronic pain situation, number 1 and 4 were clearly the main hindrances that were present. But for the last 8 years number 1 has left (not entirely) and 5 has come crushing in. Very helfpul as a reminder.

Gassho,
Sat&LaH

[Tomás ESP]

Very helpful thread, thank you. I am three days here at Treeleaf, and I encounter the same “bright, shiny, and new” feeling that pulls me in. I recently read that Jukai will start here soon, and I thought, oh good!Some new practice for me to undertake! Instead I’ll just keep sitting and abiding. See what unfolds.

This is precisely why I have decided not to undertake Jukai this year. I am tired of always running and "going all in" with a community the first minute I step in. I have come to TreeLeaf with more serious and respectful intentions and my goal is to first go day by day and go through the series of basic videos that Jundo recorded some years ago. If I keep with the commitment to TreeLeaf, which I am hoping to do, then I will reevaluate next year to undertake Jukai. Hope you enjoy your stay here, people are super friendly .

Gassho,
Sat&LaH

[Onka]

Good morning Tomas
Being Autistic I FEEL things. If something FEELS right I do it. If something FEELS wrong I don't. ADHD messes with the don't do things occasionally but hey, for the most part how I feel guides me.
For example I was an anarchist a long time before I read anything about anarchism because of my lived experience and FEELINGS of injustice just as I was Buddhist before I received the Precepts or read any books on Buddhism because again I FELT injustice and a need to reconnect with my natural introvert, shy and gentle nature.
In short, and as a Zen Buddhism student I'd suggest you read less and sit more.
Gassho
Onka
ST

[Tomás ESP]

Good morning Tomas
Being Autistic I FEEL things. If something FEELS right I do it. If something FEELS wrong I don't. ADHD messes with the don't do things occasionally but hey, for the most part how I feel guides me.
For example I was an anarchist a long time before I read anything about anarchism because of my lived experience and FEELINGS of injustice just as I was Buddhist before I received the Precepts or read any books on Buddhism because again I FELT injustice and a need to reconnect with my natural introvert, shy and gentle nature.
In short, and as a Zen Buddhism student I'd suggest you read less and sit more.
Gassho
Onka
ST

Thank you for sharing your experience with me Onka. I definitely agree and I will try to take your advice to heart. Sit more and read less.
Gassho,
Sat&LaH

[Kokuu]

Before going into the whole chronic pain situation, number 1 and 4 were clearly the main hindrances that were present.

Tomás, just to let you know that we have plans to run a book study/practice group based around Toni Bernhard's book 'How to be Sick' in the not too distant future that might be of interest.

As a virtual sangha it is probably not surprising that there are a fair few of us here who practice with chronic illness/chronic pain/disability in some form.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Jundo]

Best just to go to the next shiny thing ... and then the next next thing that may finally have the answer ... unless you stay.

Here's the next thing you should study:

SIT-A-LONG with Jundo: WHAT's NEXT!?!

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9471-SIT-A-LONG-with-Jundo-WHAT-s-NEXT%21-%21

Almost each week someone asks me, "What comes next in my practice? How do I deepen it? What should I do now? What book should I read with all the secrets? I feel like something is still missing and that I must do more."

But how can I respond to such a question when the very heart of this Path is learning to live and be this life radically FREE OF THE NEED FOR 'WHAT'S NEXT', LIBERATED OF 'SOMETHING MORE THAT NEED BE DONE', FULFILLED OF 'ANYTHING MISSING'!

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kaisho]

To be quite honest I have had this experience myself. I have bounced between buddhism and paganism for quite a long time. The thing I have just begun to realize is that these things do not have to be mutually exclusive. I do not mean mix the two but I do mean that when I practice zazen I am just sitting beyond time and space in the here and now and when I am doing worship to the gods I do as that practice dictates.

I know it isn't quite the same as jumping around to different schools, but I have heard many times from an old teacher that when you are doing zazen, just sit and when you do other things just do that. That in itself is practice.

Gassho

Chelsea
Satlah

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[Jundo]

To be quite honest I have had this experience myself. I have bounced between buddhism and paganism for quite a long time. The thing I have just begun to realize is that these things do not have to be mutually exclusive. I do not mean mix the two but I do mean that when I practice zazen I am just sitting beyond time and space in the here and now and when I am doing worship to the gods I do as that practice dictates.

I know it isn't quite the same as jumping around to different schools, but I have heard many times from an old teacher that when you are doing zazen, just sit and when you do other things just do that. That in itself is practice.

Gassho

I will tell you the same the same that I tell our Christian and Jewish members, and I see no reason that it should not apply to Pagans: We do many things in life when not sitting and practicing Buddhism, such as eat a sandwich, walk the dog, play with the kids, like baseball or whatever. So, it does not matter if you practice Zen with Paganism if you can find common ground, or space for each in your heart. However, as you said ... when sitting Shikantaza, just sit, for there is nothing else while sitting. After sitting, go have a sandwich, watch a ball game, pray to Jesus or do whatever Pagans do (wave a wand? ), being an atheist or agnostic, no problem.

I will modify my usual declaration for Pagans (not knowing actually much about Paganism, so forgive me):

If there is an Earth Goddess ... sit Zazen, live gently, chop wood and fetch watch.

If there is no Earth Goddess ... sit Zazen, live gently, chop wood and fetch watch.

Zen folks just sit as what is ... whatever is or isn't!

So long as a belief is non-violent, does not entail anger or other negative emotions, then it is no problem if your heart can find space for each. In fact, almost all Zen temple in Japan contain a Shinto shrine somewhere on the precincts, and I bet that Pagan beliefs and Shinto naturalism are not that unlike really.

Gassho, J

STLah

(more than three sentences)