COMBINED THREAD: Soto Zen, the 'Bardo,' and Spirit

[Juki]

JUNDO NOTE: This thread combines some posts from other threads discussing the concept of the 'Bardo' and what is reborn in traditional beliefs of Soto Zen. While in my own practice, I am personally rather agnostic or skeptical of very literal interpretations of such things, I am also not overly concerned, neither affirming nor absolutely denying. I like to say that, whatever the case regarding future lives, DON'T MESS UP THIS ONE! and live gently now. One can practice Zen and Zazen with or without such beliefs. I leave it to each to come to their own understanding.

I don't know if it means anything from a Zen perspective, but it has been explained to me that in Tibetan Buddhism there are four important bardos, or "in between states" (a common translation) that we experience while living: birth, death, meditation and dreaming. Each of them is important.

Gassho,
Juki

Sat today and lah

[Jundo]

Not that it necessarily means anything from a Zen perspective, but it has been explained to me that in Tibetan Buddhism there are four important bardos, or "in between states" (a common translation): birth, death, meditation and dreaming. Each of them is important.

Gassho,
Juki

Sat today and lah

Frankly, I think the "bardo" is something that somebody "dreamed up" when imagining what happens when we die.

Or, maybe we are dreaming this feeling of "being alive" in this world right now, and are asleep in our beds somewhere.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Juki]

Jundo, isn't the concept of putting somebody's picture or name on the altar at a Zen temple for 49 days after their death somehow linked to Bardo?

Gassho,
Juki

[Jundo]

Jundo, isn't the concept of putting somebody's picture or name on the altar at a Zen temple for 49 days after their death somehow linked to Bardo?

Gassho,
Juki

Yes, it is. It also helps the living to mourn and remember. Then, there are memorial services every few weeks, then every few years ... as the grief and memories slowly fade ...

Gassho, J

STLah

[Inshin]

I'm reading interesting book by Chogyam Trungpa "Transcending Madness : The experience of the Six Bardos" that mentions mental illness.
Does anyone know if there are any Zen teachings on Bardos or something equivalent? (maybe this should be a different thread?)
Gassho

[Jundo]

I'm reading interesting book by Chogyam Trungpa "Transcending Madness : The experience of the Six Bardos" that mentions mental illness.
Does anyone know if there are any Zen teachings on Bardos or something equivalent? (maybe this should be a different thread?)
Gassho

Personally, I am skeptical of such things, saying that whatever happens ever life, or does not happen, is not important. Simply live gently now, whatever the case.

But, yes, traditional Soto Zen and other Japanese Buddhism had a very close belief ...

Zen Buddhist Ceremonies for the Dead (most of which originated in tenth-century China, before Dogen)
Funeral ceremonies performed by the living can help the intermediate realm being (stream of consciousness) to
realize complete awakening, birth in a pure land, or at least rebirth in the upper realms of gods or humans. In
Soto Zen, the funeral for laypeople begins with ordaining the deceased as a Zen priest (shukke tokudo)—
receiving the bodhisattva precepts (jukai), initiation into awakening (abhisheka/kancho), and the blood lineage
document (kechimyaku) as a blessed talisman. Then there are words of guidance and encouragement (insho) for
the deceased, recitation of the ten names of buddha (nenju), and dedication of merit to adorn the deceased’s
place of destination (whatever it may be). Incense is offered as nourishment for the intermediate realm scenteater (gandharva).
Since nobody can know the destination of the deceased person’s stream of consciousness, the
living just encourage and assist it toward awakening. It is taught that the intermediate realm beings, and other
non-physical beings such as hungry spirits, can “hear” speech, perceive thoughts and intentions, and meet the
living in various ways imperceptible on the gross level, with their subtle immaterial bodies and sense faculties.

Memorial ceremonies are performed every 7 days after death, calling on different buddhas and bodhisattvas to
help the deceased realize awakening or birth in a pure land, for each of the 7 weeks of the intermediate realm up
to 49 days—when the intermediate being has either realized complete awakening, been born in a pure land,
been born into one of the six realms as a bodhisattva, or been born into one of the (hopefully upper) six realms
as an ordinary being. Annual memorials in Japan are traditionally performed up to 33 years, the maximum time
(in human years) it takes for a bodhisattva in a pure land to realize complete awakening (buddha).
https://kokyohenkel.weebly.com/uploa...th_-_kokyo.pdf

Also this ...

http://kansai-odyssey.com/japanese-buddhism-afterlife/

and from Soto-shu ...

bardo (chūin 中陰)
The state of existence between death and rebirth. Literally, that which is "in between" (chū 中) and "hidden" or "vague" (in 陰). In the Buddhist tradition there is a widespread belief that the deceased will be in the bardo state for a maximum of seven weeks, or forty-nine days in all. At the end of each week, if the spirit of the deceased has not entered a new womb, it "dies" again and starts the process of locating a womb over again.
https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng...html?key=bardo

Gassho, J

STLah

[gaurdianaq]

We have members who are Christian, Jewish, Islam, Atheist, Agnostic ... it makes no difference to Zen Practice.

People sometimes say that Buddha was atheist, but a close reading is that he side-stepped the question as not central to his teachings (and, anyway, was speaking about the Indian gods, never having heard of the Judeo-Christian version.

Zen is no more impacted by whether there is a "God" or no "God" than it is impacted by whether there is a table or no table in the same room where you sit Zazen. In either case ... table/no table or God/No God ... the sitting is the same. That is because we always sit as "what is" ... and if there is a table, that is "what is. If there is no table, that is "what is".

So, I often say ...



What brought that question up suddenly?

Gassho, J

STLah

Would you say that certain beliefs conflict or at odds with the idea of No-Self, such as believing in an eternal soul? I mean I can think of ways that combine those ideas without conflicting, such as all souls being a manifestation of god (and there for not really being separate)... I feel many would disagree, but then again maybe not... Thoughts?


Evan,
Sat today!

[Jundo]

Would you say that certain beliefs conflict or at odds with the idea of No-Self, such as believing in an eternal soul? I mean I can think of ways that combine those ideas without conflicting, such as all souls being a manifestation of god (and there for not really being separate)... I feel many would disagree, but then again maybe not... Thoughts?

[Above in this thread] I posted something about traditional Zen Buddhist ideas of the Bardo after death. Under such a system of belief, whether you call it a "spirit" or "soul" or just a "causal stream," there is something that carries on. The following is from the official Soto sect page in Japan, and notice that they use "spirit" ...

bardo (chūin 中陰)
The state of existence between death and rebirth. Literally, that which is "in between" (chū 中) and "hidden" or "vague" (in 陰). In the Buddhist tradition there is a widespread belief that the deceased will be in the bardo state for a maximum of seven weeks, or forty-nine days in all. At the end of each week, if the spirit of the deceased has not entered a new womb, it "dies" again and starts the process of locating a womb over again.

More here:
https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng...html?key=bardo

The Japanese Buddhist priests I have met are themselves very ambiguous and hazy on just what they mean. I am rather skeptical, agnostic and unconcerned about the whole question, so I don't worry about it much.

If it is a soul, spirit, causal stream or nothing at all ... live gently now.

If it is not a soul, not a spirit, nor a causal stream nor anything at all ... live gently now.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

If anyone is interested in some more reflections on the many ways to approach "rebirth" in Soto Zen ... either more literally or widely (or not to approach the topic at all) ... the following two old threads contain some reflections:

Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6102-Jundo-Tackles-the-BIG-Questions-VI-%28Karma%29

Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII (Life After Death?)

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6245-Jundo-Tackles-the-BIG-Questions-VII-%28Life-After-Death-%29

In the meantime, I am off to chop wood and fetch water.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Inshin]

More than relating to a state after death I'm interested in Bardo as a daily state of "in-between" as Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche explains in this short video. https://youtu.be/E43lYQSB6hU

How do we recognize the glimpses of Buddha Nature that happen in every day life?

"The bardo—or the “in-between”—has come to describe the transitional state between death and rebirth, but its qualities also characterize the gap arising between any two states. In fact, we live in a continuous bardo, forever suspended between past and future, although we seldom recognize it." https://tricycle.org/magazine/awakening-bardo/

Gassho
Sat

[Jundo]

More than relating to a state after death I'm interested in Bardo as a daily state of "in-between" as Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche explains in this short video.
How do we recognize the glimpses of Buddha Nature that happen in every day life?

"The bardo—or the “in-between”—has come to describe the transitional state between death and rebirth, but its qualities also characterize the gap arising between any two states. In fact, we live in a continuous bardo, forever suspended between past and future, although we seldom recognize it." https://tricycle.org/magazine/awakening-bardo/

Gassho
Sat

Hmmm. I have never heard of such a use of "bardo" except as the transition between lives in traditional ideas of rebirth. Maybe he is trying to modernize the idea? I wonder how traditional that is in Tibetan Buddhism?

In Zen, we speak of clear sky, moon and clouds, and the moon sometimes peeks through the clouds, or renders them gossamer. In fact, we learn that enlightenment is not only when the clouds disappear, but that even the darkest clouds can be illuminated.

But I don't see the connection to a "bardo." In fact, part of enlightenment in Soto Zen is to realize that there is no "this side" "that side" or "middle."

Thank you for introducing this interesting video.

Gassho, J

STLah