Pain and the Self (It's not my pain!)

[Jundo]

I deleted my long rambling question of my monkey mind. I request the “encouragement stick.”

Gassho,
Tom

Sat

I was just going to say to you comment that, whether one calls it "certainty" or "trust" or even "faith" (some folks find that last word carries some psychological baggage for them), be certain that there is a mirror that hold it all ... even mental and physical pain ... free of "mind creating noise, bias, judgements."

But don't get so tangled in the words of what you call it. More important to feel and know so, to experience so personally, than what we call so.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

There is a biological reason for pain to be sure— it’s a mechanism of survival. But, when we inevitably tack on an emotional response to that pain, it becomes augmented and monstrous where before it was “sensation.” We make catastrophe where there is none.

Gassho,
Nick

Yes, this is true. But personally, I am okay even with people tacking on an emotional response (such as some fear, grief, disappointment) to a bad health condition or other painful condition in life (e.g., grief in the face of the death of a loved one) if they experience equanimity, allowing and flowing ABOUT the fear, grief and disappointment. There is a difference between (1) feeling some natural and passing fear, grief, resentment and resistance to a condition and (2) feeling additional fear, grief, resentment and resistance about feeling fear, grief, resentment and resistance.

It is okay to be human and react in human ways, and we need not be numbed or tranquilized emotional robots, and I think that fear and sadness are just part of being human (the only trouble is when fear and sadness run to true harmful excess as, for example, panic disorders or lingering and destructive depression). I think that a close reading of the old Suttas and writings show that even folks like the Buddha and Dogen felt sad and disappointed at life circumstances sometimes (e.g., the Buddha, by the way, is said to have experienced migraines and sadness in the face of the destruction of his clan in a war, even though his later followers tried to explain the story away a bit: https://www.academia.edu/30061724/Ch...of_the_Shakyan and http://venyifa.blogspot.com/2008/09/...ssacre-of.html )

Please feel equanimity about not always feeling equanimity, not afraid to be afraid sometimes, and be content to be sad somtimes, as if witnessing one's momentary grief or fear as just another passing cloud through the mind, or another passing piece of scenery.

Gassho, J

STLah

(Sorry, a bit more than three lines).

[Jundo]

PS - About the Buddha's migraines and the ways his followers sought to explain them ...

https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Connection-with-Previous-Deeds/09-A-Headache.htm

https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/English-Texts/Why-the-Buddha-Suffered/index.htm

[nknibbs]

Agreed— yet there is a space between feeling and feeling about feeling that I often find my patients in (and myself for that matter at times). Taking that emotion and associating the emotion with the pain/condition. Attaching the two and attaching a portion of one’s existence to that attachment.

Some become defined by their pain/suffering.

Not to derail this thread, but you touched on something I’ve been thinking about recently about practice and equanimity. Something I need to work on. Thank you, Jundo Roshi.

Gassho,
Nick

(I tried keeping it to 3 lines — but I’m feeling some equanimity about that)

[Jundo]

Agreed— yet there is a space between feeling and feeling about feeling that I often find my patients in (and myself for that matter at times). Taking that emotion and associating the emotion with the pain/condition. Attaching the two and attaching a portion of one’s existence to that attachment.

What has really helped me is learning to encounter emotions differently:

Rather than (1) I am feeling sad and resentful because the world really stinks and my resentment is justified, so let me grab on to it and really wallow in it more and buy into it, it has become (2) I am temporarily feeling in my mind passing sadness or resentment because of a condition, but I need not, it can change to a different emotion in the next instant, it is all passing theatre on the stage of the mind and not defining of what the situation actually is, no need to grab on, play its game, stir it up or wallow more, so let it just pass on through.

It really makes the encounter with passing emotions quite different than before.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Meian]

What has really helped me is learning to encounter emotions differently:

Rather than (1) I am feeling sad and resentful because the world really stinks and my resentment is justified, so let me grab on to it and really wallow in it more and buy into it, it has become (2) I am temporarily feeling in my mind passing sadness or resentment because of a condition, but I need not, it can change to a different emotion in the next instant, it is all passing theatre on the stage of the mind and not defining of what the situation actually is, no need to grab on, play its game, stir it up or wallow more, so let it just pass on through.

It really makes the encounter with passing emotions quite different than before.

Gassho, J

STLah

This is really helpful, Jundo, thank you.

Gassho2, meian st

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[Meian]

speaking of this topic of pain, zen, emotions .....

at an appt with a doctor that i actually like and respect, had a discussion about this topic -- the influence and impact of emotions on our physical well-being.

we had a little disagreement on this issue. he noticed that i was wearing arthritis compression gloves (weird chilly/rainy week in August), so he commented on it. our disagreement was whether controlling one's emotions (remaining positive and happy) would heal the body and remove the pain, or whether certain physical ailments exist as they are, and we accept them as they are, while doing our best to take appropriate care of ourselves. the challenge, as has been discussed here already, is avoiding the trap of depression, excessive anxiety, and despair over one's circumstances in life.

I do not believe in false positivity, or "think happy thoughts and all will be well." however, i am all too familiar with the impact one's mind space can have on one's physical health.

my reply was that my joints and other things and swell whether i am happy, sad, angry, giddy, laughing, tired, worried, blissful, excited -- no matter how I am feeling. The pain doesn't stop, only worsens sometimes. Other parts of me feel better depending on various factors, including my mind space, and I am always working on that. But the physical pain -- ooohhh, it lets me know. But it's something i live with, so it just is. that is another matter entirely -- acceptance. Do I like the pain? Of course not. But it's there. Oh well, lol.

So we differed on the concept of acceptance -- and the reality that certain types of fatigue, you can't simply push through or "think positive" away. It just isn't so.

, meian st lh

[Onka]

speaking of this topic of pain, zen, emotions .....

at an appt with a doctor that i actually like and respect, had a discussion about this topic -- the influence and impact of emotions on our physical well-being.

we had a little disagreement on this issue. he noticed that i was wearing arthritis compression gloves (weird chilly/rainy week in August), so he commented on it. our disagreement was whether controlling one's emotions (remaining positive and happy) would heal the body and remove the pain, or whether certain physical ailments exist as they are, and we accept them as they are, while doing our best to take appropriate care of ourselves. the challenge, as has been discussed here already, is avoiding the trap of depression, excessive anxiety, and despair over one's circumstances in life.

I do not believe in false positivity, or "think happy thoughts and all will be well." however, i am all too familiar with the impact one's mind space can have on one's physical health.

my reply was that my joints and other things and swell whether i am happy, sad, angry, giddy, laughing, tired, worried, blissful, excited -- no matter how I am feeling. The pain doesn't stop, only worsens sometimes. Other parts of me feel better depending on various factors, including my mind space, and I am always working on that. But the physical pain -- ooohhh, it lets me know. But it's something i live with, so it just is. that is another matter entirely -- acceptance. Do I like the pain? Of course not. But it's there. Oh well, lol.

So we differed on the concept of acceptance -- and the reality that certain types of fatigue, you can't simply push through or "think positive" away. It just isn't so.

, meian st lh

Acceptance. Yes! And I agree that despite neuroplasticity, psychiatric and neurological understandings of the link between physical pain and the management of that via psychological understandings life is never going to be rainbows and unicorns for most folk. TBH I think the folk that peddle positivity fixing all are either extremely fortunate or live with their head up their own arse. Acceptance is the cornerstone of my Zazen Practice and it feels great to feel rubbish rather than try to mask or escape the challenges life throws at me.
Gassho
Onka
ST