The Dark Night, the Abyss, Nihilism?

[Rich]

Has anyone else experienced anything like the Dark Night of the Soul, existential crisis, or anything similar from the process of awakening to reality as it is? I know that Buddhism is not a nihilistic philosophy, but I sometimes forget why. Any thoughts?

Gassho,

Joshua
SatToday

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Sometimes you need to let go of everything and just rest. This allows the creative energy of the universe to fill your being. Nihilism is a false philosophy because it is the attachment to thinking that blocks / obscures your true nature.

Sat

[Meitou]

Sometimes you need to let go of everything and just rest. This allows the creative energy of the universe to fill your being. Nihilism is a false philosophy because it is the attachment to thinking that blocks / obscures your true nature.

Sat

Meitou
Sattoday lah

[Sekishi]

I know that Buddhism is not a nihilistic philosophy, but I sometimes forget why. Any thoughts?

I'm going to break the three-sentences rule. Sorry everyone - I'll still try to be brief!

Shunyata is often translated in English as "emptiness" (or even "voidness" in some 20th century translations). It is an OK translation, but Shakyamuni's "empty" is not the "nothing" of Turgenev or Bakunin. Shakyamuni *explicitly* taught a middle way between nihilism (belief in non-existence) and eternalism (belief in the existence of permanent "things").

To realize the great emptiness of Buddhism is to understand that no "thing" has an independent self-existence - nothing inherently exists by itself alone. It is not that nothing exists, it is that each "thing" is full of everything.

Take off your shoes and socks and turn one of socks inside out. Do you see how this sock still contains your foot, and your shoe, and your home, and the planet Earth and the whole universe? Everything is like this!

Gassho,
Sekishi
#sat #barefootinasock

[Bokucho]

I'm going to break the three-sentences rule. Sorry everyone - I'll still try to be brief!

Shunyata is often translated in English as "emptiness" (or even "voidness" in some 20th century translations). It is an OK translation, but Shakyamuni's "empty" is not the "nothing" of Turgenev or Bakunin. Shakyamuni *explicitly* taught a middle way between nihilism (belief in non-existence) and eternalism (belief in the existence of permanent "things").

To realize the great emptiness of Buddhism is to understand that no "thing" has an independent self-existence - nothing inherently exists by itself alone. It is not that nothing exists, it is that each "thing" is full of everything.

Take off your shoes and socks and turn one of socks inside out. Do you see how this sock still contains your foot, and your shoe, and your home, and the planet Earth and the whole universe? Everything is like this!

Gassho,
Sekishi
#sat #barefootinasock

Love the analogy and thank you for the response, and for everyone's response, I've greatly enjoyed all the thoughts on the matter. The no-self of other practices can become ego destroying and cause some weird sensations and perceptions of one's role in consciousness and reality. I love Zen and shikantaza, and I must sometimes remember that plain old depression can still kick in even while sitting, and it's all just a part of the beautiful dance.

Gassho,

Joshua
SatToday

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Sekishi]

Love the analogy and thank you for the response, and for everyone's response, I've greatly enjoyed all the thoughts on the matter. The no-self of other practices can become ego destroying and cause some weird sensations and perceptions of one's role in consciousness and reality.

I realize now that I left out an important part in my silly analogy: turning your sock inside out was actually superfluous!

Also, I went digging for two teachings on this subject that I have always found illuminating (and better than the sock analogy):

1. From Ajahn Sumedho (who is from a different tradition than ours, but points to the same "moon"):

In English, “nothingness” can sound like annihilation, like nihilism. But you can also emphasize the “thingness” so that it becomes “no-thingness.” So nibbana is not a thing that you can find. It is the place of “no-thingness,’” a place of nonpos-session, a place of nonattachment.

2. From Thich Nhat Han's short book / commentary on the Heart Sutra - "The Heart of Understanding":

If you are a poet, you will see clearly that there is a cloud floating in this sheet of paper. Without a cloud, there will be no rain; without rain, the trees cannot grow: and without trees, we cannot make paper. The cloud is essential for the paper to exist. If the cloud is not here, the sheet of paper cannot be here either. So we can say that the cloud and the paper inter-are.

"Interbeing" is a word that is not in the dictionary yet, but if we combine the prefix "inter" with the verb "to be", we have a new verb, inter-be. Without a cloud, we cannot have paper, so we can say that the cloud and the sheet of paper inter-are.

If we look into this sheet of paper even more deeply, we can see the sunshine in it. If the sunshine is not there, the forest cannot grow. In fact nothing can grow. Even we cannot grow without sunshine. And so, we know that the sunshine is also in this sheet of paper. The paper and the sunshine inter-are. And if we continue to look we can see the logger who cut the tree and brought it to the mill to be transformed into paper. And we see the wheat. We know that the logger cannot exist without his daily bread, and therefore the wheat that became his bread is also in this sheet of paper. And the logger's father and mother are in it too. When we look in this way we see that without all of these things, this sheet of paper cannot exist.

I love Zen and shikantaza, and I must sometimes remember that plain old depression can still kick in even while sitting, and it's all just a part of the beautiful dance.

Yes. I have a Buddhist teacher and a therapist. I recommend this to all who feel they could use both. This is caring for all beings.

Deep bows,
Sekishi
#sat

[Jundo]

I realize now that I left out an important part in my silly analogy: turning your sock inside out was actually superfluous!

Yes, I did not get that right away, and my first thought was that if the universe smelled like the inside of my socks, I would be a nihilist!

I emphasize again that this practice should leave us with an overriding sense of Wholeness, Possibility, Peace, Life and, yes, even Meaning to the universe that is anything but "nihilistic."

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jinyo]

Has anyone else experienced anything like the Dark Night of the Soul, existential crisis, or anything similar from the process of awakening to reality as it is? I know that Buddhism is not a nihilistic philosophy, but I sometimes forget why. Any thoughts?

Gassho,

Joshua
SatToday

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Hello Joshua,

Just a couple of thoughts - but more than 3 sentences - apologies.

'awakening to reality' is probably fleeting and not that easy to grasp/hold onto because a lot of the time we live in fragmentation. I think perhaps we become more aware of fragmentation when we are meditating upon interdependence - because as healing/enlightening as an awareness of interdependence may be, as human beings it's not possible to stay within that awareness. Existential crisis - the Dark Night of the Soul is a given. We can't leapfrog over this aspect of our lives. For many spiritual sages the Dark Night of the Soul is a creative force - an impulse to search out meaning and connection. I think I might distrust the experience of anyone who says they have experienced an awakening without also experiencing fragmentation. But - as Jundo teaches - Zazen at its core has no implicit force to drive a meditator to 'dark thoughts'. It is a gentle practice.

Maybe we need to create our own metaphors for what we experience as 'awakening'? The teachings are there - and provide a solid grounding - a secure base if you like we can return to. Regarding 'emptiness' I like Thich Nhat Hahn's commentary on the Heart Sutra a lot - for its directness and simplicity in putting 'emptiness' into words. Another book I return to - when I get snagged up on our western connotation of the meaning of the word 'Emptiness' is Guy Armstrong's 'Emptiness - A Practical Guide for Meditators'. The latter is an excellent, well researched book, that covers all traditions in a pragmatic fashion - but always handing our practice back to ourselves.

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat Today

[Jundo]

'awakening to reality' is probably fleeting and not that easy to grasp/hold onto because a lot of the time we live in fragmentation. I think perhaps we become more aware of fragmentation when we are meditating upon interdependence - because as healing/enlightening as an awareness of interdependence may be, as human beings it's not possible to stay within that awareness. Existential crisis - the Dark Night of the Soul is a given. We can't leapfrog over this aspect of our lives. For many spiritual sages the Dark Night of the Soul is a creative force - an impulse to search out meaning and connection. I think I might distrust the experience of anyone who says they have experienced an awakening without also experiencing fragmentation. But - as Jundo teaches - Zazen at its core has no implicit force to drive a meditator to 'dark thoughts'. It is a gentle practice.

I feel that everyone is different, and people come to experience the fruits of this practice in their own ways, so not everyone needs to pass through a "Dark Night." That said, many people come to this practice because they originally are lost in depression (I was, in my youth), alcoholism, personal confusion or trauma of other kinds. Sometimes, Buddhists, artists, musicians and others might pass through a dark time somewhere midway in their practice that is romantically called "Dark Night" or the like, but often it is just another ordinary spell of depression or personal confusion as anyone might suffer, not something particularly caused by their practice although someone might connect the two.

I have seen, for example, many cases where old demons creep up in folks (including some Zen teachers), addictive tendencies reappear, someone has a "midlife crisis" or the like, there is a bout of depression ... but it is much the same as anyone can have old demons creep up, alcoholism in the DNA, depression because we are human beings ... and it is not really caused by their Buddhist practice. (In fact, the Buddhist practice is usually a help to get them back out of it).

Further, I just don't think it is necessary that people have gone through some trauma, depression, addiction during life in order to practice. I know quite a few people who seem to have skipped that part, lucky them.

(more than three sentence )

I like Thich Nhat Hahn's commentary on the Heart Sutra

I will check out Guy Armstrong's book, but I would express one hesitancy about TNH's explanation of emptiness perhaps. Surprisingly, he is quite the materialist in his explanation, and maybe misses something. By that I mean that his explanation is based maybe too much on physical parts and pieces being related (the paper contains the tree and the sun that makes the paper, and the ground in which the tree grows and the lumberjack who cuts down the tree, etc.). That is all good and true, but somehow misses the wondrous experience of the whole "something more" and a bit mystical which sweeps it all in.

It is much like saying that a Chopin Sonata on the universe's piano is the wood and keys of the piano, the bricks of the theatre, the cells and blood of the pianist's hands, the lights overhead, the ink and paper of the score ... but somehow missing the music, the life, the emotive power. It is hard to explain.

Well, the whole of reality is actually a dance, a grand symphony which is playing, and our bones are its very vibrations ...

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jakuden]

I will check out Guy Armstrong's book, but I would express one hesitancy about TNH's explanation of emptiness perhaps. Surprisingly, he is quite the materialist in his explanation, and maybe misses something. By that I mean that his explanation is based maybe too much on physical parts and pieces being related (the paper contains the tree and the sun that makes the paper, and the ground in which the tree grows and the lumberjack who cuts down the tree, etc.). That is all good and true, but somehow misses the wondrous experience of the whole "something more" and a bit mystical which sweeps it all in.

It is much like saying that a Chopin Sonata on the universe's piano is the wood and keys of the piano, the bricks of the theatre, the cells and blood of the pianist's hands, the lights overhead, the ink and paper of the score ... but somehow missing the music, the life, the emotive power. It is hard to explain.

Well, the whole of reality is actually a dance, a grand symphony which is playing, and our bones are its very vibrations ...

Thank you for putting this into words, Jundo. I have tried to pin this down regarding TNH and couldn't. That really nails it.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Rich]

I will check out Guy Armstrong's book, but I would express one hesitancy about TNH's explanation of emptiness perhaps. Surprisingly, he is quite the materialist in his explanation, and maybe misses something. By that I mean that his explanation is based maybe too much on physical parts and pieces being related (the paper contains the tree and the sun that makes the paper, and the ground in which the tree grows and the lumberjack who cuts down the tree, etc.). That is all good and true, but somehow misses the wondrous experience of the whole "something more" and a bit mystical which sweeps it all in.

It is much like saying that a Chopin Sonata on the universe's piano is the wood and keys of the piano, the bricks of the theatre, the cells and blood of the pianist's hands, the lights overhead, the ink and paper of the score ... but somehow missing the music, the life, the emotive power. It is hard to explain.

Well, the whole of reality is actually a dance, a grand symphony which is playing, and our bones are its very vibrations ...

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Thanks.
🙏💜
Sat/lah

[Jinyo]

Further, I just don't think it is necessary that people have gone through some trauma, depression, addiction during life in order to practice. I know quite a few people who seem to have skipped that part, lucky them.




I will check out Guy Armstrong's book, but I would express one hesitancy about TNH's explanation of emptiness perhaps. Surprisingly, he is quite the materialist in his explanation, and maybe misses something. By that I mean that his explanation is based maybe too much on physical parts and pieces being related (the paper contains the tree and the sun that makes the paper, and the ground in which the tree grows and the lumberjack who cuts down the tree, etc.). That is all good and true, but somehow misses the wondrous experience of the whole "something more" and a bit mystical which sweeps it all in.

I agree it's not necessary to have experienced trauma to practice - but it does feel the essence of practice at least addresses 'everyday unhappiness' and its roots in attachment and our difficulty in understanding/accepting impermanence and no-self.

It's interesting that you describe Thich Nhat Hahn as materialist in his expression of interdependence - and I don't disagree that there is a lack of the mystical/transcendent - but this doesn't seem to be his aim. I've noticed (and this still puzzles me a bit) that TNH has a very particular response to questions about loss/grief (which are in essence questions about attachment). In one book (I think 'No death, no Fear) he shares the overwhelming grief he felt at the loss of his mother. For TNH his grief was assuaged by contemplating interconnectvity -by feeling close to his mother by seeing her in the clouds and the rain, etc Whenever he is asked about grief he uses this example and it is used repeatedly in his writings and oral teachings. It can come across as simplistic - and interestingly never differs - whether the person asking is a child or an adult. I feel with TNH his teachings are practical - and therefore come across as material and maybe a bit sparse and lacking in any intellectual bite and at times utopian/naive. But - I do think they're a good place to start - clear, direct, uncomplicated - but personally I found I needed more and Zen seems to provide. That's not in any way a positive statement about myself because I've always felt my struggle with the simplicity of TNH's approach was a failing within myself and a propensity to gravitate towards more complexity.

Too many words - apologies!

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat Today

[Jundo]

For TNH his grief was assuaged by contemplating interconnectvity -by feeling close to his mother by seeing her in the clouds and the rain, etc Whenever he is asked about grief he uses this example and it is used repeatedly in his writings and oral teachings. It can come across as simplistic - and interestingly never differs - whether the person asking is a child or an adult. I feel with TNH his teachings are practical - and therefore come across as material and maybe a bit sparse and lacking in any intellectual bite and at times utopian/naive. But - I do think they're a good place to start - clear, direct, uncomplicated - but personally I found I needed more and Zen seems to provide. That's not in any way a positive statement about myself because I've always felt my struggle with the simplicity of TNH's approach was a failing within myself and a propensity to gravitate towards more complexity.

Different ways resonate with different folks, not everything is one's cup of tea, but for me, it does not get to the heart of the matter just to say "still in the clouds, in the rain" to leaping through birth and death. There is a wonderful activity going on that is, yet is not, me and you, TNH and his mother, birth and death, clouds and rain.

But that said, I don't feel that our Zen way is actually "more complexity," and is the very opposite of complexity. In fact, our home is precisely what is when all the complexity and categories, division and diversity, ideas and angles drop away into flowing wholeness. Then one realizes that all the complexity and categories, division and diversity, ideas and angles, me and you, TNH and his mother, birth and death, clouds and rain have been this very same wholeness flowing all along.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Sekishi]

Different ways resonate with different folks, not everything is one's cup of tea, but for me, it does not get to the heart of the matter just to say "still in the clouds, in the rain" to leaping through birth and death. There is a wonderful activity going on that is, yet is not, me and you, TNH and his mother, birth and death, clouds and rain.

But that said, I don't feel that our Zen way is actually "more complexity," and is the very opposite of complexity. In fact, our home is precisely what is when all the complexity and categories, division and diversity, ideas and angles drop away into flowing wholeness. Then one realizes that all the complexity and categories, division and diversity, ideas and angles, me and you, TNH and his mother, birth and death, clouds and rain have been this very same wholeness flowing all along.

It is likely due to the brain damage caused by doing one too many (or a hundred too many) proofs "by induction" for recursive functions, but for me personally TNH's presentation rang like a bell. Yes, he starts in the completely "materialist" world of paper, raindrops, lumberjacks, socks, and mothers. But looking at dharmas in this way caused this small mind to follow the chain of origination into an infinite regress until *POOF* all distinctions between this, that, self, and other collapse into constructs and only a seamless whole remains.

We can ride Fibonacci sequences, Sierpinski triangles, and the jewels of Indra's net into the heart of compassion for all beings.

Gassho,
Sekishi
#IMHO #YMMV #sat

[gaurdianaq]

It is likely due to the brain damage caused by doing one too many (or a hundred too many) proofs "by induction" for recursive functions, but for me personally TNH's presentation rang like a bell. Yes, he starts in the completely "materialist" world of paper, raindrops, lumberjacks, socks, and mothers. But looking at dharmas in this way caused this small mind to follow the chain of origination into an infinite regress until *POOF* all distinctions between this, that, self, and other collapse into constructs and only a seamless whole remains.

We can ride Fibonacci sequences, Sierpinski triangles, and the jewels of Indra's net into the heart of compassion for all beings.

Gassho,
Sekishi
#IMHO #YMMV #sat

I feel similarly, I haven't read a lot of TNH yet, but I find those types of "Material" explanations can be a good bridging point to understanding. As someone who was initially turned off by anything that sounded too spiritual, that sort of explanation really helped me along quite a bit. (Maybe it's the computer programmer in me)

Evan

[Jundo]

I feel similarly, I haven't read a lot of TNH yet, but I find those types of "Material" explanations can be a good bridging point to understanding. As someone who was initially turned off by anything that sounded too spiritual, that sort of explanation really helped me along quite a bit. (Maybe it's the computer programmer in me)

Evan

Oh, I agree with this, and don't want to imply otherwise.

It is just that the thrill of the highway and the whole wondrous trip should not be confused just with tires and carburetors, pistons and gas, asphalt and exit ramps alone. On the one hand, each beat of a piston and inch of blacktop embodies the entire highway and whole wondrous trip, although the winding highway and whole ride is so much more than just metal, rubber and tar.

However, I agree that such descriptions can be a doorway to truly understanding emptiness if we don't stop there.

Emptiness is moving, breathing, hot, active right down to its little parts ... where the Dharma rubber meets the Buddha road.

https://youtu.be/tg2EbJy-9dc

If Bodhidharma were heading back west, he'd drive.

Gassho, J

STLah