The Dark Night, the Abyss, Nihilism?

[Bokucho]

Has anyone else experienced anything like the Dark Night of the Soul, existential crisis, or anything similar from the process of awakening to reality as it is? I know that Buddhism is not a nihilistic philosophy, but I sometimes forget why. Any thoughts?

Gassho,

Joshua
SatToday

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Jishin]

Hi,

I used to have disturbing dreams that I was out in space surrounded by darkness and nothing else.

The dreams went away after a while.

I am not sure if this addresses your question.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Bokucho]

Hi,

I used to have disturbing dreams that I was out in space surrounded by darkness and nothing else.

The dreams went away after a while.

I am not sure if this addresses your question.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

It absolutely does, thank you for your input, it's reassuring to know that others experience similar things. [emoji120][emoji120][emoji120]

Gassho,

Joshua
SatToday

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

I will say this, before people jump in, as the topic has come up before.

That kind of thing usually occurs with very intense, high pressure, kinds of meditation or practice. Shikantaza is actually a rather gentle, "let things be," way of sitting as we practice it. (There are intense versions too, and hard retreats in Soto too, but we are not doing that here.) So, it is unlikely.

If such a thing does happen to someone sitting our way, my feeling is that it is usually just an ordinary case of depression, anxiety or other personal issues that happens to anybody, and the trigger is not Zazen or Zen practice itself. I have rarely, if ever, had anyone come to me because Shikantaza has pushed them into some dark place. On the other hand, I have encountered people who are just depressed, or suffering panic issues in life, and I immediately encourage them to talk to their doctor.

Follow the doctor's orders. It is rare, but if the sitting of Zazen becomes too much to handle for someone, stop ... talk to the doctor. When the person feels better, they can come back to sitting with their doctor's okay.

Gassho, Jundo


STLah

(Ooops, needed to overdo my three sentences!)

[Bokucho]

I will say this, before people jump in, as the topic has come up before.

That kind of thing usually occurs with very intense, high pressure, kinds of meditation or practice. Shikantaza is actually a rather gentle, "let things be," way of sitting as we practice it. (There are intense version too, and hard retreats, in Soto too, but we are not doing that here.) So, it is unlikely.

If such a thing does happen to someone sitting our way, my feeling is that it is usually just an ordinary case of depression or other personal issues that happens to anybody. The trigger is not Zazen or Zen practice itself. I have rarely, if ever, had anyone come to me because Shikantaza has pushed them into some dark place. On the other hand, I have encountered people who are just depressed, or suffering panic issues in life, and I immediately encourage them to talk to their doctor.

Follow the doctors orders. It is rare, but if the sitting of Zazen becomes too much to handle for someone, stop ... talk to the doctor. When the person feels better, they can come back to sitting with their doctor's okay.

Gassho, Jundo


STLah

I think that's wonderful advice, I really only experienced similar things when diving deep into Vipassana practice (part of the reason I stopped), but I was curious if Zazen ever led people to similar outcomes. Thank you Jundo.

Gassho,

Joshua
SatToday

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Kokuu]

Hi Joshua

My own experience has not been like that and I think that if we see reality as it really is, then we see how completely full and interconnected we all are.

However, I believe it is possible to get lost in ideas of what emptiness and lack of self are that can seem dark and maybe there are stages of practice that can feel like that.

If I have had difficult times, I find that going from a focus on wisdom practices which look at the nature of self and reality, to compassion practices, which affirm our common humanity, connection and interdependence, can be really helpful. Also volunteer or yard work if possible to ground us in the body and action rather than the head.

The Advaita teacher Nisargadatta Maharaj has a nice phrase about this which captures the balance of practice:

“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing,
Love is knowing I am everything,
and between the two my life moves.”

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Bokucho]

Hi Joshua

My own experience has not been like that and I think that if we see reality as it really is, then we see how completely full and interconnected we all are.

However, I believe it is possible to get lost in ideas of what emptiness and lack of self are that can seem dark and maybe there are stages of practice that can feel like that.

If I have had difficult times, I find that going from a focus on wisdom practices which look at the nature of self and reality, to compassion practices, which affirm our common humanity, connection and interdependence, can be really helpful. Also volunteer or yard work if possible to ground us in the body and action rather than the head.

The Advaita teacher Nisargadatta Maharaj has a nice phrase about this which captures the balance of practice:

“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing,
Love is knowing I am everything,
and between the two my life moves.”

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Thank you for the input Kokuu, back in the day before I had started any Buddhist practice my therapist had recommended loving-kindness meditation, and it worked very well. Yard work is a wonderful idea also, I suppose that's why Zen gardens are so popular [emoji120]

Gassho,

Joshua
SatToday

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

I think that's wonderful advice, I really only experienced similar things when diving deep into Vipassana practice (part of the reason I stopped), but I was curious if Zazen ever led people to similar outcomes. Thank you Jundo.

Gassho,

Joshua
SatToday

And as I recall, you did a rather intense version of Mahasi Sayadaw meditation, sometimes very intense and highly concentrated. Yes, that can set one off.

Anyone can be particularly sensitive to any situation. The sitting quietly of Shikantaza, turning off the mental "noise," can cause things to "come up" (for example, old memories, an unexplained moment of sadness, a touch of fear) because QUIET does that to people.

However, it should not be either overwhelming or more than for a passing short time. Not something that lasts.

If it is more than that, it is probably some other issues that happen to be arising in the person's life not due particularly to Buddhist practice. They should talk to a professional, because dealing with such things in therapy can go hand in hand with Zazen.

Gassho, j

STLah

(needed to exceed 3 sentences)

[Jakuden]

I usually chime in to the nihilism discussion because I used to have a pretty hard time with it, prior to joining Treeleaf. Then I learned here that, indeed nothing matters, but also everything matters very much! Now when I get nihilistic thoughts, I know I need to just get out of my head and go help someone else.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Kokuu]

And as I recall, you did a rather intense version of Mahasi Sayadaw meditation, sometimes very intense and highly concentrated. Yes, that can set one off.

Someone who came to my sitting group had a long period of depression triggered by mindfulness practice. He was a clinical psychologist and undertaking mindfulness training in order to see if it helped his clients on the Autism spectrum or not. As part of that he had to engage in daily practice and that was when his depression occurred. Of course, it may have been unrelated, but it does seem advisable to notice the signs if it is something we are predisposed towards.

I usually chime in to the nihilism discussion because I used to have a pretty hard time with it, prior to joining Treeleaf. Then I learned here that, indeed nothing matters, but also everything matters very much! Now when I get nihilistic thoughts, I know I need to just get out of my head and go help someone else.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Juki]

Kobun Chino Otagawa described a similar state, in three sacred sentences, no less:

"It is very important to experience the complete negation of yourself which brings you to the other side of nothing. People experience that in many ways. You go to the other side of nothing, and you are held by the hand of the absolute."

On an unrelated note, the nihilists in "The Big Liebowski" were posers.

Gassho,
Juki

Sat today and lah

[Jishin]

Has anyone else experienced anything like the Dark Night of the Soul, existential crisis, or anything similar from the process of awakening to reality as it is? I know that Buddhism is not a nihilistic philosophy, but I sometimes forget why. Any thoughts?

Gassho,

Joshua
SatToday

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

When talking about this subject with others I bring up the point that life has 2 purposes, the primal purpose (eating bananas) and a secondary purpose (a philosophical question raised by human kind for thousands of years as a development of our cognitive capabilities).

Life always has a purpose in the primal sense (to live) and people tend to forget this by placing too much focus on the secondary purpose (by speculating what it all means by cognitive means).

Any meaning found in life above and beyond the primal purpose is a bonus.

Gassho, ST

[Onka]

Refusing to live in an anarchist echo chamber I find our Practice reaffirming of my own outlook in that we all have more in common than not. My own chronic severe depression and anxiety, as well as other physical stuff are actually helped by our gentle Practice. I came to Zen with no expectations and no pressure on myself so maybe that's helped me in avoiding things of this nature coming up.
Gassho
Onka
st

Sent from my SM-A205YN using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Kobun Chino Otagawa described a similar state, in three sacred sentences, no less:

"It is very important to experience the complete negation of yourself which brings you to the other side of nothing. People experience that in many ways. You go to the other side of nothing, and you are held by the hand of the absolute."

The aspect of Zen which drops away ideas of "me and you" "right and wrong" "good and bad" can push some people into a vision of meaningless, barren nihilism where nothing has significance, there is no point to existence, and maybe even killing and stealing is "okay" because ultimately there is nobody to kill and nothing to steal!

But the Buddha, Dogen and all the Zen masters, bar none, absolutely rejected that kind of vision of "nihilism."

In Zen practice, rather than meaningless barrenness, one finds a Wholeness which sweeps in all things, and is somehow filled with creativity and all the meaning and significance that we wish to bring to it, a realm in which we plant seeds and can nurture what we wish ... and it is up to our hearts and our behavior as to how we see this world and how we choose to act in it for good or bad.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Geika]

After my grandfather died, I felt this really spastic and anxious push to discover what "I was about." I was deep into practicing Wicca before that but I felt very disorganized and powerless after his passing, and very fearful of death, manifesting symptoms of nausea and panic on a daily basis, and missing work and school until I quit both. I related very much to the idea of the "dark night of the soul" during that time-- I was so painfully confused.

Gassho
Sat today, lah