Koan study

[Snark]

Hi,

I am sorry if this has been asked before, or this in the wrong board.

I have been working with the question "who am I" for a few months now. Is anyone else working with a koan? If so how do you use them? Are you searching for an answer or set of answers? When is it time to move on?

Gassho,

dan.

[Kokuu]

Hi Dan

There may be other members who are working on a koan but it is not something we do at Treeleaf or in Soto Zen generally.

That doesn't mean that it isn't useful or doesn't have its place in practice but our way centres on Shikantaza zazen.

Koans in Soto Zen are more used as teaching tools and stories which convey truths.

That said "who am I?" is a question we all sit with and as we drop all sense of "I" and "mine", "self" and "other" in Shikantaza, the answer to that may well present itself.

There is more than one way to kill Nansen's cat!

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Jundo]

Kokuu speaks for "me" on this, and says it just right ... which is "Who am I" ....

Really, all we do around here is about the question "Who am I." Especially:

"who am I?" is a question we all sit with and as we drop all sense of "I" and "mine", "self" and "other" in Shikantaza, the answer to that may well present itself.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jundo]

I will also say this ... probably too much ...

The "answer" is not necessarily an "answer," in that usually one thinks of a questioner and an answer which stands apart.

Further, the "answer" will not tell you what the weather will be next Tuesday, or the outcome of a football match, or the capital of Peru, God's middle name, but it will answer so much.

It is something like finding oneself, out of the blue, born in a little boat on a wide wide river, paddle in hand. This is just as we find ourselves, born out of the blue, in this life. One is not sure of where the river came from, or where it stretches around the next bend, and yet one fully knows the wetness of the river just by dipping in one's hand. One can taste the whole river in each briny drop. Further, one comes to realize that the whole river, every drop, its flowing, your hand, you, the boat and paddle, the other boats and passengers passing by, the shore and sky, and every blade of grass and mosquito is all just this ... all the river flowing, and the river flowing as all. Every blade contains every boat and the whole river, and each drop of water holds all the flowing waters and the entire sky. Same for you and you just so.

The river flows as you, you are this river flowing, and all the rest is you including every blade of grass and tiny bug and sky, and they each are enlivened by you. Seemingly, this river flowed before your time and will flow on after, and some folks' trips are long while others seem short, yet ... since you are just the river's flowing ... you flow on before and after, not bound by start or stop. How wondrous, how amazing, that river and boat, sky and paddle, you and me should be rowing along here at all!

In the meantime, having been born with paddle in hand, what is the best thing to do? Just paddle paddle, sometimes drift drift ... do your best to avoid any rocks or gators (though they are just this too) ... Though we cannot avoid the rocks and gators forever, and some folks seem to encounter their share, human beings do seem to muck up the rowing more than needed.

Row row row your boat ... down the stream ... life is but a dream ... so dream it well.

Now, the above is just a simile, a story, an idea. The purpose of a Koan like "Who am I" or "Jundo's River" is just to feel the flowing wetness of these waters as oneself, flowing as our every inch.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Shokai]

"who am I?" is a question we all sit with and as we drop all sense of "I" and "mine", "self" and "other" in Shikantaza, the answer to that may well present itself.

Seems to me I've heard this somewhere before http://www.mirrorofzen.com/form.html

gassho, Shokai
stlah

[Jakuden]

Seems to me I've heard this somewhere before http://www.mirrorofzen.com/form.html

gassho, Shokai
stlah

Wow that's an interesting little page!

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Jundo]

Hi,

I am sorry if this has been asked before, or this in the wrong board.

I have been working with the question "who am I" for a few months now. Is anyone else working with a koan? If so how do you use them? Are you searching for an answer or set of answers? When is it time to move on?

Gassho,

dan.

I will add this, that if you are interested in Koan study in the Rinzai or mixed Rinzai-Soto way ... chewing on a Koan, presenting one's responses to a teacher ... one really needs to work face-to-face with a teacher who engages in such practice. Otherwise, it can be a bit like teaching oneself to fly a plane without a flight instructor. No, it is not how we approach sitting and Koans in the Soto way.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Snark]

Thank you all for your considered replies!

Gassho,

dan.

[Tai Shi]

Shokai, I have that book, or similar book with Koan and Commentary. I have enjoyed the good book very much. And I might add the perhaps, I don't know for sure, but one might sit with the book in front on one, or self. That book was given to me, along with A Brief History of Buddhism explanation where we came from, the latter recommended by Kokuu, and a book I completed only half way trying to understand Theravada essence of The Buddha's enlightenment. I will reread some of this book on Koan again.
Tai Shi
sat/ lah
Gassho

[Getchi]

Thankyou for this teaching 🙂

I'm reminded of a little be in a movie, "when am I NOT myself?".

So easily answered, and yet never finished.

SatToday, LaH.

Gassho,
Geoff.

[Shoki]

Thanks Dan for bringing this up and thanks to Jundo and others for the input. Ive been mulling this question over myself lately. Not as a koan but since I read chapter 11 of Realizing Genjokoan which touches briefly on this. The funny thing is, I find it much easier to know who I am NOT.

Gassho
ST-lah
James

[Jishin]

Hi,

I am sorry if this has been asked before, or this in the wrong board.

I have been working with the question "who am I" for a few months now. Is anyone else working with a koan? If so how do you use them? Are you searching for an answer or set of answers? When is it time to move on?

Gassho,

dan.

Hi Dan,

These are my thoughts on Koans:

From a soto perspective they are stories that use less obscure logic to decrease suffering.

From a rinzai perspective they are intended as a more mystical vehicle to decrease suffering.

The end result is the same. The Soto perspective may seem boring, less mystical and not the "sexy zen" that we want to encounter as practitioners a lot of the time.

I think that the logical aspect of koans more common in soto zen is more useful as rinzai koans with more mystical answers actually serve the opposite purpose of decreasing suffering. You work very hard at them and run further away from decreasing suffering for a long time until you learn that they are a trap given to you by your teacher so you will leave him/her alone.

It's only a koan if you make it a koan. Don't make it a koan. Don't let the trojan horse in. Don't be ensnared by the word trap.

Gassho, ST

[Kokuu]

These are my thoughts on Koans:

From a soto perspective they are stories that use less obscure logic to decrease suffering.

From a rinzai perspective they are intended as a more mystical vehicle to decrease suffering.

I pretty much agree with Jishin on this.

Although we don't actively work with koans in Soto practice, you end up understanding a large amount of them through successive exposure to them and your deepening understanding through sitting.

Both ways are pointing to the same thing.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Rich]

Hi,

I am sorry if this has been asked before, or this in the wrong board.

I have been working with the question "who am I" for a few months now. Is anyone else working with a koan? If so how do you use them? Are you searching for an answer or set of answers? When is it time to move on?

Gassho,

dan.

The answer is not intellectual or from thinking, it’s existential.
The Kwan Um School uses teaching koans at centers thru out the world.
What is this? Don’t know

Sat

[Jishin]

The answer is not intellectual or from thinking, it’s existential.
The Kwan Um School uses teaching koans at centers thru out the world.
What is this? Don’t know

Sat

I love their school of thought.

My only problem is the time spent on getting to "things are just as they are."

The time spent is gone forever on What is this? Don't know...

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__