Split Thread: Socially DIS-engaged Buddhism

[Kokuu]

The Zen book that grabbed me was a Brad Warner book. I like his band and give him credit where credit is due in getting me to sit every morning. I wouldn't read another of his books and don't watch his YouTube channel because I feel he must have a sore arse from sitting on the fence with everything.

Hi Onka

I must admit I have not noticed that Brad is one for fence-sitting. Can you give examples? Politically he does but that is out of a choice to keep politics out of his Zen (a stance I don't agree with but a stance all the same) and he is pretty clear on his views regarding virtual practice and drugs in Buddhism.

His views and mine often don't match (I am 100% with him on the drug ones though) but I am glad he says what he thinks. Fortunately I missed the gender dysphoria statements as don't think I would have enjoyed those.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Onka]

Come on comrade, you know me well enough to know that of course I was referring to politics with the statement about fence sitting. Every aspect of our lives is governed by politics of some kind.
Gassho
Onka

[Jundo]

The Zen book that grabbed me was a Brad Warner book. I like his band and give him credit where credit is due in getting me to sit every morning. I wouldn't read another of his books and don't watch his YouTube channel because I feel he must have a sore arse from sitting on the fence with everything. He lost me completely when he compared having man boobs with gender dysphoria. Insert every swear word invented here. If I was in LA I'm sure I'd have delivered him a good old fashioned strongly worded letter attached to my fists and boots and then probably have to spend the following 20 years living naked in a cave reciting the Verse of Atonement non stop.

... Come on comrade, you know me well enough to know that of course I was referring to politics with the statement about fence sitting. Every aspect of our lives is governed by politics of some kind.

Personally, I believe that Brad is very political as a Zen teacher, maybe more than many. Every talk by Bro. Brad about closing one's ears to the news, about just being concerned about one's own practice, about how wrong it is for Buddhists to engage in social causes as an aspect of their practice, about how there is no need for Buddhist groups to take special steps to welcome sexual, racial or economic minorities, is a political statement and a strong one.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tom A.]

Personally, I believe that Brad is very political as a Zen teacher, maybe more than many. Ever talk by Bro. Brad about closing one's ears to the news, about just being concerned about one's own practice, about how wrong it is for Buddhists to engage in social causes as an aspect of their practice, about how there is no need for Buddhist groups to take special steps to welcome sexual, racial or economic minorities, is a political statement and a strong one.

Gassho, J

STLah

I’m surprised by that because I like Brad’s books for the most part. A non-stance stance kind of seems antithetical to the Bodhisattva way. Liberal or conservative, it seems like an aspiring Bodhisattva would be active in the world or am I missing a subtle teaching of Dogen that can be interpreted differently? Because I’ve never seen that way of thinking from any Mahayana teacher, Soto or otherwise that I’ve read or talked to. Bless all you Catholics out there but it kind of reminds me of the Pope’s stance during WWII.

One thing I’ve noticed is a fault me and Brad share: we are dismissive of things we don’t understand, for example in one book he dismisses the concept of “dharma position (jū-hōi)” because he “doesn’t get it.” And I tend to dismiss everything that I don’t get as a “deepity”. I realize that is unfair (and I fight the urge to judge and just simply not know) when reading Dogen’s writings because they *are* profound and beautiful when understood in the context of Zen.

Gassho,
Tom

Sat


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[Jundo]

... it seems like an aspiring Bodhisattva would be active in the world or am I missing a subtle teaching of Dogen that can be interpreted differently? Because I’ve never seen that way of thinking from any Mahayana teacher, Soto or otherwise that I’ve read or talked to. Bless all you Catholics out there but it kind of reminds me of the Pope’s stance during WWII.

Well, in the Buddha's time, Dogen's time, it was not so easy. I wrote this the other day ...

Buddha, Dogen and the other ancient Zen masters in China and Japan lived in the days of kings and emperors with armies, samurai and sword makers. Many of those kings, emperors, samurai and sword makers were their patrons and Buddhist followers. Further, in those ancient agricultural, traditional, rigidly class based and authoritarian societies, the kings and samurai were the rulers and elite, the educated (or nearly so) and powerful. One simply had no choice, if one wanted to have a temple or Sangha without it being burned to the ground and one's monks put to the tip of a sword, of pleasing those kings and samurai.

So called "engaged Buddhism" with interest in social justice, helping the poor, opposing wars and the like was simply not an option 200 or 2000 years ago. The rulers would tolerate no social protest. There were some great exceptions, such as Tetsugen Dōkō (鉄眼道光 1630–1682) of the Obaku Zen school in Japan ...

Tetsugen decided to publish the sutras, which at that time were available only in Chinese. The books were to be printed with wood blocks in an edition of seven thousand copies, a tremendous undertaking.

Tetsugen began by travelling and collecting donations for this purpose. A few sympathizers would give him a hundred pieces of gold, but most of the time he received only small coins. He thanked each donor with equal gratitude. After ten years Tetsugen had enough money to begin his task.

It happened that at that time the Uji River overflowed. Famine followed. Tetsugen took the funds he had collected for the books and spent them to save others from starvation. Then he began again his work of collecting.

Several years afterward an epidemic spread over the country. Tetsugen again gave away what he had collected.

For a third time he started his work, and after twenty years his wish was fulfilled. The printing blocks which produced the first edition of sutras can be seen today in Ōbaku monastery in Kyoto.

The Japanese tell their children that Tetsugen made three sets of sutras, and that the first two invisible sets surpass even the last. (from zen flesh zen bones)

In fact, one of the main reasons that Soto Zen is so widespread throughout Japan, and the largest Zen sect by number of temples and followers, is ... not ... Zazen (which really appeals to people of a certain bent), but their activities in (I quote) "the building of bridges, digging of hot springs, irrigation projects, the the curing of diseases, and the expulsion of evil spirits and wicked dragons." (https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...ragons&f=false)

Many Zen and other Buddhist priests were socially active with the rulers ... by helping the rulers, in their policy making and as advisors.

One simply had no opportunity to make waves and, perhaps, there was even the feeling that "Karma" and their own acts in previous lives had led poor peasants to be poor peasants, so it was something that the peasants had to work through themselves ... perhaps for a better rebirth next time.

All that changed in the 19th and 20th centuries, with the advent of so-called "Buddhist modernism," monks and lay people in Asia and the west more interested ... and freer and more able ... to engage in social causes such as building orphanages and hospitals, school for the common people and the like (frankly, usually directly inspired by ... and in competition with ... the Christian missionaries who were flooding Asia).

Furthermore, it is only in the last 100 years that Buddhist and other clergy can march in the streets, oppose our leaders' policies, protest a war, engage in civil disobedience and the like without being thrown in prison or, quite possibly, in a grave. (It is still not possible in much of the world).

Where I disagree with Brad is in his criticisms of those today in the Zen world who choose to combine their social concerns with Zen Practice. Brad does not believe that one can or should do so, but many of us believe that the Precepts and our Vows to rescue Sentient Beings means more than just teaching them about "Emptiness" when their stomachs are empty. One can cook for hungry monks or cook in a soup kitchen for the poor, clean temple floors or work to clean the oceans, nurse a sick monk or nurse the sick in Africa. He has been so critical of Zen groups that are trying to do so. I agree with Brad on many things such as Shikantaza, but here he is just plain wrong and unfair to a lot of good people who are trying to sit Zazen, then get up off their asses to do something.

Gassho, J

STLah

PS- I am going to split off this topic, if I may.

PPS - If anyone needs any wicked dragons expelled, drop me an e-mail.

[Jundo]

By the way, Dogen ... as limited as he was in his ability to change the world (rather than see through it) .... seems also to have supported helping the poor as one could. He wrote this in the Zuimonki (2-2) ...

Dogen instructed,

Once, while the late Sojo Eisai was at Kenninji, a poor man came and said, “My family is so destitute that we have had nothing to eat for several days. My wife and children are about to die of starvation. Please have compassion on us.”

At the time, there was no clothing, food, or other possessions in the temple. Although Eisai contemplated what to do, he was at a loss. There was a little bit of thin copper allocated for making the halo for the Yakushi-Buddha which was under construction. The abbot took it and broke it apart, rolled it up, and gave it to the poor man, telling him to exchange it for food to relieve his family’s hunger.

The man was very delighted and left.

Eisai’s disciples, however, reproached him [Eisai] saying, “That is nothing other than the halo for the statue of the Buddha. You gave it away to the layman. Is it not a sin to use the Buddha’s property for personal use?”

The Sojo replied, “Yes, it is. Yet think of the Buddha’s will. The Buddha cut off his flesh and limbs and offered them to living beings. Even if we gave the whole body of the Buddha to people who are actually about to die of starvation, such an action would certainly be in accordance with the Buddha’s will.”

He went on, “Even if I fall into hell because of this sin, I have just saved living beings from starvation.”

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tom A.]

Split Thread: Socially DIS-engaged Buddhism

PPS - If anyone needs any wicked dragons expelled, drop me an e-mail.

Thank you for your detailed answer, it answered a lot of my questions. [emoji120] I agree 100% with your stance on Buddhist activism.

I just want to know what a “wicked dragon” is and then I’ll shut up.

Edit: It’s a joke, sorry[emoji58]I realize that now, I was 100% hoping that it was terminology for a real computer related problem.

Also, shut up. I got there... eventually...

Gassho,
Tom

Sat


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[Jundo]

I just want to know what a “wicked dragon” is and then I’ll shut up.

You know ... dragons. With the claws and sometimes fire breathing (except that Asian dragons usually don't do fire, only the European kind and on Game of Thrones). In China, Japan and much of Asia, they are usually seen as auspicious and happy creatures, symbols of power. However, sometimes even a dragon has a bad day and needs to be tamed.

There were lots of evil creatures and spirits in old Japan that needing calming sometimes. Here are a few. Often, Buddhist priests would pacify them by administering the Precepts (Jukai) just as we do around here.

Hey, Jukai worked to calm some of the "wild spirits" we have around Treeleaf, yes? (You know who you are! )

https://youtu.be/hHEbDYF9v4w

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tom A.]

Split Thread: Socially DIS-engaged Buddhism

It’s fitting what you named this thread. I speak a huge game when it comes to social action but I don’t follow through. Someday soon because if Pema Chodron is right, I’ve sown the seeds and it’s only a matter of time.

Thanks again for the reply to my mistaken question (hey, any excuse to talk about dragons is a good excuse to me[emoji854]),

I’m a huge fan of the ‘Spirited Away’ dragon:

It’s so beautiful. We watched that movie at the ‘Minnesota Zen Meditation Center’ a couple months before the quarantine. I was blown away.

Gassho,
Tom

Sat


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[Tom A.]

Split Thread: Socially DIS-engaged Buddhism

A convoluted question regarding generosity that may be seen as the equivalent of “how many angels can dance on the tip of a pin?”

What are your views on the Tibetan concept of Bodhicitta and how does that aspiration to help others square with the Diamond Sutra’s repeated idea that giving with “lakshana”(thoughts or feelings) of doing good is not right view? To me the Diamond Sutra appears to say, ideally, there should be no feeling of doing good for the giver or recipient.

In other words, Is the Soto Zen view that one should give (or any of the others of the six paramitas) with prior cultivated feelings like in Tibetan Buddhism or is it more of just do good without first cultivating feelings to do good?

In other words, how much time should I spend cultivating an “awakened heart”(an aspiration to do good), if any? My fear is that this will turn into a case of feeling good for doing nothing but sitting around and feeling good about aspiring to help others. A kind of Buddhist slacktivism.

Gassho,
Tom

Sat


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[Jakuden]

A convoluted question regarding generosity that may be seen as the equivalent of “how many angels can dance on the tip of a pin?”

What are your views on the Tibetan concept of Bodhicitta and how does that aspiration to help others square with the Diamond Sutra’s repeated idea that giving with “lakshana”(thoughts or feelings) of doing good is not right view? To me the Diamond Sutra appears to say, ideally, there should be no feeling of doing good for the giver or recipient.

In other words, Is the Soto Zen view that one should give (or any of the others of the six paramitas) with prior cultivated feelings like in Tibetan Buddhism or is it more of just do good without first cultivating feelings to do good?

In other words, how much time should I spend cultivating an “awakened heart”(an aspiration to do good), if any? My fear is that this will turn into a case of feeling good for doing nothing but sitting around and feeling good about aspiring to help others. A kind of Buddhist slacktivism.

Gassho,
Tom

Sat


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I love this question and am looking forward to hearing the answer myself!

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Tom A.]

READ THIS WITH A DUMP TRUCK FULL OF SALT:

I might be doing more harm by throwing around wild speculation.

My gut feeling says the answer for Tibetan Buddhism is something like: Bodhicitta and aspiration are great formal practices up until the point where self and other drops away (ultimate Bodhiccita) and you help others more or less intuitively.

I have nothing to base this gut feeling on other than my readings of the Diamond sutra.

And in Soto Zen the “non gaining”, “mushotoku mind” of Shikantaza precludes any striving but you vow to save all sentient beings which doesn’t necessarily entail striving, it is Ultimate Bodhiccita and relative Bodhiccita rolled into one.

Anyways I have nothing to base this on as I never took notes when reading dharma books and I’m too lazy to search the interweb.

Gassho,
Tom

Sat



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[Jundo]

Hi Tom,

Sorry, my answer will be too simple perhaps.

Doing good to help others is good (even though, ultimately, there is no giver, given or gift, thus ultimately no good or bad that can be done. Nonetheless, here in samsara there are hungry mouths to feed and other good things to be done, so good to give.)

Don't just sit around thinking about doing some good: Rather, actually do something!

It is okay for the giver to feel some joy in doing so. I am sure that even the Buddha received some pleasure and satisfaction in the good works he did.

"Non-gaining" mind and dropping "goals" in the ultimate perspective does not preclude our simultaneously having goals to achieve (such as to help somebody) here in samsara. One can experience reality from both aspects at the same time, at once.

Yes, the Tibetans can be a bit too philosophical and analytical about such questions for my taste.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kokuu]

What are your views on the Tibetan concept of Bodhicitta and how does that aspiration to help others square with the Diamond Sutra’s repeated idea that giving with “lakshana”(thoughts or feelings) of doing good is not right view? To me the Diamond Sutra appears to say, ideally, there should be no feeling of doing good for the giver or recipient.

Hi Tom

Bodhicitta is not an exclusively Tibetan concept, it is woven throughout Mahayana Buddhism.

I believe it would, however, be true to say that Tibetan practice does use compassion and relative Bodhicitta as a dharma door more directly than Zen.


As regards Brad, I spoke to him about his views about Buddhism and race after a video/blog post on the question of whether Zen centres should be having courses on race awareness and attempts to improve the demographic away from a majority of white middle class students. His opinion is that dharma centres are there to teach dharma and nothing else. Personally, I don't think that things are as easily separated and that having dharma centres essentially uphold the inherent structural bias of wider society is not helpful. But, that is his view and many feel similarly.


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Jundo]

As regards Brad, I spoke to him about his views about Buddhism and race after a video/blog post on the question of whether Zen centres should be having courses on race awareness and attempts to improve the demographic away from a majority of white middle class students. His opinion is that dharma centres are there to teach dharma and nothing else. Personally, I don't think that things are as easily separated and that having dharma centres essentially uphold the inherent structural bias of wider society is not helpful. But, that is his view and many feel similarly.

It is funny, because when he was in Japan (same for me), our teacher Nishijima Roshi made special effort to accommodate Zen training for us and other foreigners: in English language, the food served during retreats, creating a residential community just for non-Japanese, and many other ways. So, Brad's stance is rather hypocritical.

I also trained at purely Japanese places (where I was the only non-Japanese), where only Japanese was spoken, Japanese customs had to be followed to the letter (the foreign retreats were looser on demanding that). Fortunately, I spoke Japanese. Many or most foreigners would have struggled in Japan without what Nishijima and others did to make Zen training available for people like Brad and me.

Gassho, J

STLah