How should one read the Blue Cliff Records?

[Kyōsen]

I decided to order a copy for myself a couple days ago; figure I should read the telephone game that is translating a 900 year old text from its native (extinct dialect of) Chinese into modern English (perhaps the drunkest language of all time).

I know this text is a big deal among the Rinzai school, and I know Dogen is said to have copied the whole thing by hand in a single night (which many think is a very silly story but one that isn't necessarily entirely untrue).

So what I'm wondering is ... is there anything I should keep in mind before/while reading it that might help? Like how the Shobogenzo can be read in multiple ways if you know what to look for.

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

[Jundo]

Hi Kyosen,

Here is my general advise on encountering Koans. Here ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?16733-Koan-and-Shikantaza&p=236411&viewfull=1#post236411

... and here ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?16733-Koan-and-Shikantaza&p=236432&viewfull=1#post236432

After taking a peak at those, let me know if you are left even more puzzled!

I will say that we do not approach them as just "illogical statements." They are very "logical," but it is the "Buddha's logic" in which you are the mountain and the flower, and they are precisely you ... yet not at all. (sound of one hand clapping)

I tell folks to approach them like bits of song or poems that do contain teachings, yet sometimes told in old jokes that are hard to translate, slang that is forgotten, references to stories that we don't get or know. In fact, I had this same experience yesterday when I heard this modern singer's tune ... and I have almost no idea what he is talking about, although he seems to!

https://youtu.be/ofbI_nrxiX8?t=32

To me, Koans make at least that much sense!

Let me also add that, in the Blue Cliff, accompanying each Koan, dozens of later commentators added their little poems and comments to accompany the Koan. Some are bullshit, some are real nice, some are just a Zen masters' game of "one upmanship," some are better than the main Koan itself. Don't take them all as worthwhile.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kyōsen]

Thank you, Jundo-sensei!

This is why I'm so grateful to have found Tree Leaf and you. When you write things like:

Again, I am not a Koan introspection teacher, so I am perhaps biased. However, I believe that such kind of Koan work is a great distraction often turning into psycho-babble and gobbledygook and hunting for revelations and such, especially in the hands of teachers who just make it up as they go along. Truly, no, it is one of the worst things to ever happen in the Zen world. In the hands of a gifted teacher, a Koan can come alive. But, in the setting of a Dokusan room with students presenting mysterious answers and yelling or jumping around ... and a teacher who thinks he or she can "read minds" ... it is ridiculous and is more likely to lead to blind alleys. It has plagued the Zen world for centuries. There is one fellow teaching Koans to groups online now, and listening to his talks I wonder if he just makes it up on the fly as he goes along. It is like "stream of consciousness" poetry, wherein once in awhile wisdom does appear (but only once one gets through all the mumbo jumbo).

I have (and still) come across the kind of psycho-babble and gobbledygook and hunting for "hidden" wisdom and ... I don't have any interest in that sort of thing. I often think: If you can't talk to someone plainly, then maybe you don't understand what you're talking about in the first place. At the same time, I accept that what Zen points to is beyond words and concepts so sometimes attempts to point to that sound like nonsense, but it really isn't. Words and concepts just can't do what we might ask them to do.

So I'm not prepared to write off koans, and I'm not prepared to over-value them. I'm not sure what I'm expecting from reading this text; probably nothing. Maybe something will jump out at me and might put a smile on my face, and that sounds like it might be worth it.

The first video in your first link was pretty funny (as you said). I like that no one was taking themselves too seriously. I like it even more after having watched the second video where it seems everyone was taking themselves a little too seriously. But what do I know? I suppose you had to have been there.

Anyway, thank you for the head's up about the commentaries on the BCR. I'll keep that in mind so I don't make the mistake of taking the commentaries too seriously or not seriously enough. I'm sure I'll fail, but I'm not worried. Failure isn't the opposite of success anyway, and I'm not sure I even want to be "successful" at koans (whatever that means).

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

[Jundo]

At the same time, I accept that what Zen points to is beyond words and concepts so sometimes attempts to point to that sound like nonsense, but it really isn't. Words and concepts just can't do what we might ask them to do.

So I'm not prepared to write off koans, and I'm not prepared to over-value them. I'm not sure what I'm expecting from reading this text; probably nothing. Maybe something will jump out at me and might put a smile on my face, and that sounds like it might be worth it.

You put it quite right, I feel. They contain wonderful Teachings, although some of the stories are hard to get sometimes.

By the way, if you would like to first read another volume that does an excellent job of presenting the Koans and commenting on them for modern times, we have been reading the "Book of Serenity/Equanimity" collection on and off for a few years in our "no words bookclub" ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/search.php?searchid=1070368&pp=&page=4

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kyōsen]

I'm looking forward to that! The Book of Serenity on my "list" along with The Gateless Gate. I think I'll enjoy reading them and then reading through what others have written about their thoughts. Others have a wonderful way of seeing what's staring me in the face but utterly escaping me. I love that.

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

[Meitou]

I'm afraid I've never understood a single koan that I've read, or even come close, but they intrigue me as much as they defeat me.
But I wanted to thank you anyway for starting a thread that doesn't mention the v****!
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday

[Kokuu]

Hi Kyōsen

I really like reading kōan collections but I would never claim to understand most of them.

However, some I find to be really helpful ways of encapsulating certain bits of dharma and useful both for personal understanding and explaining. They are often short and to the point and in that way cut through a lot of discursive though and I find that to be very useful.

I like the way that Dōgen uses kōans in his writing, and he often twists them to show us a new way of looking at things. When we come across them time and time again in different Zen writing, I find that kōans can feel like old friends and sometimes when I am struggling with a situation it will bring to mind a kōan just as we might think of a character from literature in certain scenarios that echo our own life.

In that way I think that kōans are part of the literature and fabric of Zen, a shared language by which we can explore ideas and concepts.

Mostly, I think they are something to be enjoyed and have fun with, rather than taken too seriously! It is great when we see into what one is getting at but I wouldn't get too frustrated with the ones that elude our grasp. They may become meaningful at a later point or may not. The fact that there are so many means that we can work with the ones that speak to us and leave the rest.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Kyōsen]

I'm afraid I've never understood a single koan that I've read, or even come close, but they intrigue me as much as they defeat me.
But I wanted to thank you anyway for starting a thread that doesn't mention the v****!

Haha, yeah, I have a pretty low tolerance for "news" over-saturation. Too much of one topic and I just tune it out, figuring "if something changes that I should know about, I'll find out."

Hi Kyōsen

I really like reading kōan collections but I would never claim to understand most of them.

However, some I find to be really helpful ways of encapsulating certain bits of dharma and useful both for personal understanding and explaining. They are often short and to the point and in that way cut through a lot of discursive though and I find that to be very useful.

I like the way that Dōgen uses kōans in his writing, and he often twists them to show us a new way of looking at things. When we come across them time and time again in different Zen writing, I find that kōans can feel like old friends and sometimes when I am struggling with a situation it will bring to mind a kōan just as we might think of a character from literature in certain scenarios that echo our own life.

In that way I think that kōans are part of the literature and fabric of Zen, a shared language by which we can explore ideas and concepts.

Mostly, I think they are something to be enjoyed and have fun with, rather than taken too seriously! It is great when we see into what one is getting at but I wouldn't get too frustrated with the ones that elude our grasp. They may become meaningful at a later point or may not. The fact that there are so many means that we can work with the ones that speak to us and leave the rest.

Thank you, Kokuu!

The first koan I was ever introduced to was the one of the Goose in the Bottle. I think I first came across it in 2002 from a Tibetan teacher and it always stuck with me like you say, as an "old friend". I like that one a lot, it helps me to cut through a lot of crap. Some koans definitely evade me, but I don't stress over that. I figure there are so many koans because none of them will "work" for everyone.

What's also fun is when you come across someone who is discussing something and the way they phrase a particular thing ... sounds just like a koan and causes me to pause. I love that. Teachers who don't even know they're teaching, expressing the Dharma without knowing it consciously. Is there anything more magical?

I suspect the koans I read in this book will be like the passages in the Tao Te Ching; I may not understand them immediately but, like you said, they may become meaningful later on. Maybe years later. Everything in its own time

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

[Shinshou]

Years ago, in the era of CD's, I read an interview with the singer Seal. The interviewer asked why he didn't include lyrics in his CD inserts. His paraphrased answer was something like this: many times, people misunderstand lyrics, but those incorrect phrases hold lots of meaning for the listener, and who was he to take that meaning away? If the correct lyric is "and I saw you on the stairs," but the listener hears "and it's all you understand," that phrase, though incorrect, comes to mean something for the listener, possibly something with a deeper meaning than the "real" words. I look at some of the koans the same way - the deeper, non-discriminative lesson you find will be something meaningful to you, regardless of the challenge of discerning what was "really" meant.

Shinshou (Daniel)
St Today

[Kokuu]

I look at some of the koans the same way - the deeper, non-discriminative lesson you find will be something meaningful to you, regardless of the challenge of discerning what was "really" meant.

I think that is a really good point, Shinshou!

When I was younger I was interested in Tarot reading. After a time of working with them I rather suspected that they were not able to magically foretell what was going to happen, but instead were a set of archetypal images of the human condition which can be used as reflections of what is going on for us as a gateway into exploring that more deeply.

Likewise, I think that koans can be utilised in the same way.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Jundo]

Years ago, in the era of CD's ...

Now that phrase, just for a moment, made me feel very old.

Fortunately, the Koans also helped me see through young and old and moments. We are the still still spindle at the center of the spinning 45, and the hard diamond stylus that moves gracefully through the grooves of the LP. (A Koan)






delete record enso.jpg


Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

Years ago, in the era of CD's ...

Now that phrase, just for a moment, made me feel very old.

Fortunately, the Koans also helped me see through young and old and moments. We are the still still spindle at the center of the spinning 45, and the hard diamond stylus that moves gracefully through the grooves of the LP. Although time is turning, we are unmoved. (A Koan)






delete record enso.jpg


Gassho, J

STLah

[Kyōsen]

Years ago, in the era of CD's, I read an interview with the singer Seal. The interviewer asked why he didn't include lyrics in his CD inserts. His paraphrased answer was something like this: many times, people misunderstand lyrics, but those incorrect phrases hold lots of meaning for the listener, and who was he to take that meaning away? If the correct lyric is "and I saw you on the stairs," but the listener hears "and it's all you understand," that phrase, though incorrect, comes to mean something for the listener, possibly something with a deeper meaning than the "real" words. I look at some of the koans the same way - the deeper, non-discriminative lesson you find will be something meaningful to you, regardless of the challenge of discerning what was "really" meant.

I like this. This is a good comment on a way to approach koans and I'm also reminded of how whenever I sing "Patricia" by Florence and the Machine, I change the lyrics and the song becomes more meaningful to me, personally and I feel like that's the right thing to do. It's maybe not what the songwriter intended, but it's a good case for why the death of the author argument holds water.

When I was younger I was interested in Tarot reading. After a time of working with them I rather suspected that they were not able to magically foretell what was going to happen, but instead were a set of archetypal images of the human condition which can be used as reflections of what is going on for us as a gateway into exploring that more deeply.

Haha, I worked with Tarot too at one point in time. I had the understanding that the cards that came up may prompt me to ask questions I would not otherwise think to ask, or they may invite me to view a situation through a different lens or set of facts. 11 years ago I was agonizing over the decision to remain in Vancouver or move back to Saskatchewan. I felt I could not ask myself because I was too invested emotionally in both places, I could not ask my parents because they would give obviously biased responses. Then the idea came to me: What could be more un-biased than a deck of cards? So I picked up a deck and a book to teach me how to read the cards and I ended up moving back to Saskatchewan. It was here that I met the man I am now very happily married to

I'm sure some koans will leap from the page and speak to me in curious and unexpected ways, and I'm sure some will be frustratingly obtuse (at least for now).

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

[Yokai]

I found another Blue Cliff Record

https://youtu.be/bxdEcuwIS3U

Gassho, Chris Stlah

[Kyōsen]

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH