Deleted by Will

[will]

Deleted

W

[Jundo]

Re: Deleted by Will

Hey Will,

He's may just be having a bad day, maybe set off by what I wrote on the "Saying Less" thread. I know you won't take what he said personally.

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

Re: Deleted by Will

It must be the summer heat, gettin' to folks.

[Stephanie]

Re: Deleted by Will

hee hee

I understand your frustration, Harry, but behind the self-righteous lecturing is a human being who doesn't have any more of a clue than the rest of us... that goes for all of us. None of us knows what the hell we're talking about... ain't it grand? :lol:

[Jundo]

Re: Deleted by Will

Stephanie,

Because many people are confused, or you feel confused, don't assume that everyone must be confused.

As well, anyone can be swept up in confusion and unbalance sometimes, but some folks like to stay there. I would not think that a good way to live.

Just a piece of advice.

Gassho, Jundo

[will]

Re: Deleted by Will

Instead of self righteous this or that stuck in what and where, read the d*mn thing.

I didn't write it. So I guess it would be Shunryu Suzuki who was the self righteous one.

Hands palm to palm

W

[Stephanie]

Re: Deleted by Will

Jundo--

I didn't say people were confused... I said people don't know what the hell they're talking about. I haven't met a single person yet who did. Some people seem to, at first, but if you hang around them long enough, you find out that they don't... :!:

As for your slightly veiled snipe at my struggles, at least I'm being honest. I'm not trying to pretend I have it all together. If people take something away from my posts, it's with the knowledge of my condition in mind. I like that. No holiness here.

And I can't figure how anyone who spends hours of their time typing on the Internet about Buddhism is "balanced."

[will]

Re: Deleted by Will

And I can't figure how anyone who spends hours of their time typing on the Internet about Buddhism is "balanced."

Easy answer. Because it is. And the more you practice, the more it is. Like it or not.

Gassho Will

[Stephanie]

Re: Deleted by Will

Will--

When I read your posts, I am not filled with the sense that this is a person in whose footsteps I'd want to follow. Sometimes I think you're further off the deep end than me. Maybe your life is better than I imagine it is, but I think this is a case of the blind leading the blind here.

Stephanie

[disastermouse]

Re: Deleted by Will

Will--

When I read your posts, I am not filled with the sense that this is a person in whose footsteps I'd want to follow. Sometimes I think you're further off the deep end than me. Maybe your life is better than I imagine it is, but I think this is a case of the blind leading the blind here.

Stephanie

Why do you think you're so far off the deep end?

[Gregor]

Re: Deleted by Will

Judging other peolple is really "balanced"

[roky]

Re: Deleted by Will

i think its time to sit, no?

i'll meet any of y'all in the zen hall, say at 2pm est?

gassho, bob

[Stephanie]

Re: Deleted by Will

Is "balanced" the new "enlightened"? As in, "I'm more balanced / enlightened than you!" Lordy... :lol:

Have at it while you whack at each other with your sticks of balanced Zen enlightenment, I'll just be over here in the corner, laughing an enjoyably unbalanced laugh...

dm--the actual day-to-day content of my life is pretty normal. But my interior state of mind is pretty dark. I don't come to Zen practice to enhance an already happy life, but crawling, in desperation, out of a last-ditch attempt at finding some sort of redemption... for myself, for the world... to convince myself that there's a point to all my useless spiritual gyrations of the past several years. I increasingly lose hope that this will happen, because I just don't believe it's true, that there is some sort of transcendent reason we're stuck in this mess. Hanging around "spiritual people" has just increasingly convinced me of this, as the bullshit is so redolent in these circles you don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to sniff it out.

My mind is sort of... a black hole of despair, quite often. No one would wish to be in this state of mind. But I've arrived here out of a stubborn dedication to the truth. I just can't make myself go along with something that seems, feels, false to me. Over and over again, the spiritual answers that people offer... they just fall apart. So in a Zen context, I'm supposed to be left with an enhanced appreciation for the cup of tea and the tangerine. But I don't give a damn about tangerines or tea. Sorry. Maybe there's just some internal switch that's flipped off; while it's not that I can't enjoy life's "simple pleasures," I find them wanting. Leaving the options of finding some spiritual "way out" or getting so deep in the mud that it starts to feel good. There's a wolf in me, a beast... and I've tried to fight her, to placate her, with all of this spiritual stuff, but it's stopped working. And it's left me at a very strange place. A crossroads. I haven't taken a road yet.

Sometimes the only saving grace is that I find it all so damned funny. Not that I don't find it poignant, too, or I wouldn't be in social work. But there's a sort of sinister nonchalance that's there, a kind of nihilism born out of heartbroken idealism. I want someone to convince me that I'm just a lost soul who needs to see the light. Like Fox Mulder, I want to believe. But I can't. The people I try to enlist to convince me only end up bearing out my suspicions sooner or later. I do have some thoughts that are... sort of comforting, I suppose... that even if the "light" is something we make up, the fact that we can make it up is significant... but it's a hard job to try to make up some light for yourself when you know it's all a big phony sham just to keep you from falling into the abyss.

Maybe I'm not off the deep end. Maybe my ferocious dedication to truth has brought me to confront some things most people don't want to, but are there nonetheless. Or maybe I'm just a lost girl who needs to find the right treatment and get better. I sincerely don't know.

[roky]

Re: Deleted by Will

well, i think i was solo -- forgot that half the world is asleep -- literally, that is

i think there are better ways to share the dharma, zazen is one -- a silent walk together another, etc.

but really, i got here looking for sangha, primarily to sit with -- great sitting with jundo, but really would like to be sitting with others(hi, ron, nice to sit this morning) -- otherwise, i wind up back where i was( i know, where else is there?), which is me sitting by myself for about 30 years -- it really is great when someone else shows up in the zen hall, and since we don't have a physical one, this is all we've got, technical glitches and all

for me, the buddhist philosophy is just a side-effect -- "you have to say something" - unfortunately

steph, i hope this practice is of some help -- i know that when i was in really bad shape, it was the only thing that helped -- and even then, i felt like shit -- but i do think its reasonable to expect some benefit from an ongoing practice, or maybe its not for everyone

i remember talking with the teacher at rochester zen -- how did you get into zen? -- he said, "are you kidding? - i didn't have any choice -- i tried everything else, i was desperate"

maybe its not that way with everyone, maybe some arrive here with great ease -- but i don't think so

gassho, bob

[Jinho]

Re: Deleted by Will

Is "balanced" the new "enlightened"? As in, "I'm more balanced / enlightened than you!" Lordy... :lol:

Have at it while you whack at each other with your sticks of balanced Zen enlightenment, I'll just be over here in the corner, laughing an enjoyably unbalanced laugh...

dm--the actual day-to-day content of my life is pretty normal. But my interior state of mind is pretty dark. I don't come to Zen practice to enhance an already happy life, but crawling, in desperation, out of a last-ditch attempt at finding some sort of redemption... for myself, for the world... to convince myself that there's a point to all my useless spiritual gyrations of the past several years. I increasingly lose hope that this will happen, because I just don't believe it's true, that there is some sort of transcendent reason we're stuck in this mess. Hanging around "spiritual people" has just increasingly convinced me of this, as the bullshit is so redolent in these circles you don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to sniff it out.

My mind is sort of... a black hole of despair, quite often. No one would wish to be in this state of mind. But I've arrived here out of a stubborn dedication to the truth. I just can't make myself go along with something that seems, feels, false to me. Over and over again, the spiritual answers that people offer... they just fall apart. So in a Zen context, I'm supposed to be left with an enhanced appreciation for the cup of tea and the tangerine. But I don't give a damn about tangerines or tea. Sorry. Maybe there's just some internal switch that's flipped off; while it's not that I can't enjoy life's "simple pleasures," I find them wanting. Leaving the options of finding some spiritual "way out" or getting so deep in the mud that it starts to feel good. There's a wolf in me, a beast... and I've tried to fight her, to placate her, with all of this spiritual stuff, but it's stopped working. And it's left me at a very strange place. A crossroads. I haven't taken a road yet.

Sometimes the only saving grace is that I find it all so damned funny. Not that I don't find it poignant, too, or I wouldn't be in social work. But there's a sort of sinister nonchalance that's there, a kind of nihilism born out of heartbroken idealism. I want someone to convince me that I'm just a lost soul who needs to see the light. Like Fox Mulder, I want to believe. But I can't. The people I try to enlist to convince me only end up bearing out my suspicions sooner or later. I do have some thoughts that are... sort of comforting, I suppose... that even if the "light" is something we make up, the fact that we can make it up is significant... but it's a hard job to try to make up some light for yourself when you know it's all a big phony sham just to keep you from falling into the abyss.

Maybe I'm not off the deep end. Maybe my ferocious dedication to truth has brought me to confront some things most people don't want to, but are there nonetheless. Or maybe I'm just a lost girl who needs to find the right treatment and get better. I sincerely don't know.

Gassho,

First I want to mention that for someone in so much confusion and distress, you write wonderful things (my having read several of your recent posts).

I wish to suggest something rather un-soto, but you have this big question. First try to simplify your question/desire, what is your most basic question, and then sit with that question for all you're worth, with every ounce of energy. Carry that clarified question with you during your day. Just keep asking it and I promise you, you will get an answer. But don't ask anyone else as you will only receive someone else's answer (which might or might not be helpful but most probably won't be YOUR answer). Every book on zen (at least the old stuff) says that everyone has to find their own answer. And there is an answer waiting for you. I promise. But don't buy some second hand answer from someone else

Also, take care of your health, all those silly things like cut down on caffeine and sugar, eat healthy, take good vitamins, because bad health can confuse the situation by causing exhaution and unhappy feelings. And this confusion can become overwhelming (at least it has been for me, on some occasions).

thank you for your time,
rowan