Deleted by Will

[Jinho]

Re: Deleted by Will

Gassho,

(Yes, I post a lot).

I wish to say that I have been quite shocked by reading the posts here. A continuous stream of judgments, assumptions, insults, disrespect, etc. Perhaps there is a playful and affectionate tone that I am missing in SOME of the posts, perhaps there is some inside joke that I am missing? but reading them "straight", I am appalled. But I really hope I am wrong (maybe it's just the Diet Coke...)

thank you for your time,
gassho,
rowan

Robertson Davies wrote (I must paraphrase here):
(A little boy runs away and joins a carnival. He notices that there are long lines at the fortune teller's tent and asks her about it).
"how come you are so successful? Are you really psychic?"
The fortune teller replies "No, not at all! it is just that most people are starved for a kind word".

[Stephanie]

Re: Deleted by Will

roky and rowan,

Thank you so much for your empathy and wisdom. I find light in your words (but no phoniness).

roky--Trust me, I have benefited from Zen practice, enormously so. There's been many a dark time where zazen has been my only refuge, where sitting and being able to let go has been a shelter in the storm, a feeling of homecoming. Of all the things I greet with skepticism, zazen isn't one of them. Whatever the nature of its graces, they are there, undoubtedly. But there's a sort of chicken and egg question here--is it that zazen has carried me through times of despair, or brought me to them?

It was zazen that really "introduced me to my mind" and where I started to see all the lies, all the deceptions, in which I was entangled. But as much of a haven and respite as zazen has been, it has also assured the collapse of any comforting mental structure, leaving me at a signless place at times where nothing in this world seems substantial. Liberating, yes, but more than anything I find this experience destructive, because it leaves me questioning the value of doing anything, completely disoriented and in a state of inertia I struggle to break out of.

rowan--I think that is an excellent suggestion you have made. I have done things similar to that at times, but perhaps instead of just drifting back to these doubts and questions whenever the darkness hits, I should keep my focus on them. No doubt this could bring a measure of clarity, given it would force me to look at these questions from more than one state of mind. Also yes on the health thing. I get grumpy when I don't eat or don't sleep and sometimes I forget how much simple things like that contribute to an underlying sense of distress.

Gassho--

Steph

[Shugen]

Re: Deleted by Will

Hello Bob - Nice to sit with you as well. I'm going to try sitting around that time most mornings - key word is most

Stephanie - Anything I could say to you has already been said in a better way by someone else. Just keep laughing That seems pretty healthy to me. Of course, I don't know what I'm talking about either. :lol:

Rowan - Seems to me people have been a little cranky the last couple of days. Maybe it's the onset of fall.

What is this thread about anyway?

Ron

[disastermouse]

Re: Deleted by Will

I find echoes of my own journey in what Stephanie says - I'd imagine a lot of us do.

One thing I've noticed is that you (stephanie) seem to have a lot invested in the idea that the world needs to or should be different than it is. Well, that's WAR and it will devastate you and leave you feeling like nothing could ever be right again. In wishing the world to be different than it is, you're not just going to war, your going to a 100% guaranteed loss of a war.

So my first piece of advice would be to stop going to war to change anything. Instead, use that energy to probe into whether your beliefs that things SHOULD be changed hold up to greater scrutiny. Reality itself is what 'should' be happening - everything else is a delusion. How do you know reality should be happening the way it is? It's happening! It doesn't need your approval.

I know this is new-agey stuff - but the 'inquiry' process of Byron Katie can strip away a LOT of these SHOULD/MUSTs.

Chet

[Stephanie]

Re: Deleted by Will

What is this thread about anyway?

hee hee

Damned if I know.

I find echoes of my own journey in what Stephanie says - I'd imagine a lot of us do.

One thing I've noticed is that you (stephanie) seem to have a lot invested in the idea that the world needs to or should be different than it is. Well, that's WAR and it will devastate you and leave you feeling like nothing could ever be right again. In wishing the world to be different than it is, you're not just going to war, your going to a 100% guaranteed loss of a war.

So my first piece of advice would be to stop going to war to change anything. Instead, use that energy to probe into whether your beliefs that things SHOULD be changed hold up to greater scrutiny. Reality itself is what 'should' be happening - everything else is a delusion. How do you know reality should be happening the way it is? It's happening! It doesn't need your approval.

I know this is new-agey stuff - but the 'inquiry' process of Byron Katie can strip away a LOT of these SHOULD/MUSTs.

Chet

I appreciate what you say, Chet, and I think you're quite on-target with a lot of things. But (I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to be as clear as possible) it's not so much that I don't like the world, or don't think it's how it should be. I mean, there are a lot of things that I think could be better done by us humans, but that's not the source of my despair. It's actually a rare source of hope. That we can recognize when things aren't so great, and then do what we can to make it better.

I think I'd have the same problems if it was a My Little Pony world with only giggles and rainbows and puppies. Whatever kind of world it is--good world, bad world--I just can't seem to find any reason to be here. That even if we can do a lot of nice things, what does it matter? Why bother? But I am well aware that this may derive from some sort of issue within myself, not some disheartening ultimate truth about the meaninglessness of it all. Maybe something in me is broken. But there are things that get through--witnessing the joy and suffering of others, beautiful music, good wine. Maybe I need to focus on these things more, instead of focusing on the dark side so much.

That's sort of the conclusion I've been coming to lately--that while I need to continue to practice, to continue to sit, that perhaps I need to step back and step away from all of this spiritual stuff and turn back toward the world a bit. I was sitting on my couch last night reading a book on Patti Smith's album Horses and was absolutely inspired by this story of someone who turned her back on religion and found her religion instead in art, poetry, and rock and roll. She took the same sort of sensibility I have, this intense doubt and disgust and anger and fire, but instead of succumbing to despair, found life instead... found celebration. And created something that has probably helped more people through those dark nights than any Dharma book ever could.

I'm not a musician and never will be, but I think I could stand to be a bit more creative, to express the rage and despair in some form that is not so rational. Why not take more joy in the feeling of being on the outside, knowing that I can fearlessly embrace the perverse as well as the holy?

I don't know, it's all a jumble right now and I'm sure Jundo won't approve of all of this mental blather, but there is something going on other than despair right now.

[Jundo]

Re: Deleted by Will

Hi Steph,

You come and go from here every few months, and I am always glad to see you. You are a good and caring person. But I will always say the same things to you no matter how many times you come, and I will until you truly hear:

All the words you pour out in your writings, all those ideas in your head (many so dark), all your judgments and assumptions about how things "are" and "must be" for you and the world ...

It is only you making all that, only you who keeps all that junk and jumble floating around in your head.

The one thing I rarely hear you say, Steph:

"I have these thoughts, but I know they are just the silly story I write for myself, the dream I choose to dream. I know it does not have to be that way, and the world can be experienced from countless different perspectives. I can change how I think, I can drop so many of those ideas as self-created fantasies."

Instead, you insist that your ideas and judgments are real!

You could drop so many of those ideas and judgments, drop them completely away. And you could replace other ideas (which you now think irreplaceable) with very different perspectives. You choose not to, or you are afraid to let go of these thoughts ... as if they provide you safety (like a life preserver you cling to). But it is these thoughts that are what are drowning you, dragging you under the sea.

So SIT! Drop your judgements, ideas of how the world "is" or "is not" or "should be". SIT in a way you may have never sat before, all during life. (it sounds to me like you are sitting on your Zafu, but do you truly know how to drop thoughts and emotions ALL THROUGH YOUR DAY, ALL THROUGH LIFE?)

Usually you say: Folks don't know me, folks don't know what I need, folks just throw Zen-isms at me. Why don't they just listen as I wallow in the mudhole I make for myself. Steph, those are not "Zen-isms", but the cure for suffering. LISTEN, TRULY LISTEN, and put it into practice without excuse.

One thing I've noticed is that you (stephanie) seem to have a lot invested in the idea that the world needs to or should be different than it is.

So my first piece of advice would be to stop going to war to change anything.

I think this sound advice. The only thing I always add is that this need not be passivity or resignation. The last time you were here, Steph, I wrote this to you. It is still true: Non-Zen folks might think you have to be X or Y, but we are XY (or non-XY) at once! No problem! So, our Buddhist Practice is just not some simple minded passivity or blind acceptance of life. We move forward, and make choices ... even as we know there is no place to go, and nothing in need of selection. Thus, it is a very unusual way to life ... "acceptance without acceptance" or "dropping likes & dislikes while simultaneously having likes & dislikes" ... seeking "change" while always perfectly still.

We can allow and accept for the world garden to be a complex place filled with beauty and ugliness, we embrace and permit that our lives can be a tangle of flowers and weeds, even as ... simultaneously,hand-in-hand without the least break ... we set to pulling weeds where we can, untangling brambles where we can.

These are not "Zen cliches", but medicine for most human suffering. Noble Truths. Try them for real. Open the hand of thought (another cliche).

Gassho, Jundo

[disastermouse]

Re: Deleted by Will

What is this thread about anyway?

hee hee

Damned if I know.

I find echoes of my own journey in what Stephanie says - I'd imagine a lot of us do.

One thing I've noticed is that you (stephanie) seem to have a lot invested in the idea that the world needs to or should be different than it is. Well, that's WAR and it will devastate you and leave you feeling like nothing could ever be right again. In wishing the world to be different than it is, you're not just going to war, your going to a 100% guaranteed loss of a war.

So my first piece of advice would be to stop going to war to change anything. Instead, use that energy to probe into whether your beliefs that things SHOULD be changed hold up to greater scrutiny. Reality itself is what 'should' be happening - everything else is a delusion. How do you know reality should be happening the way it is? It's happening! It doesn't need your approval.

I know this is new-agey stuff - but the 'inquiry' process of Byron Katie can strip away a LOT of these SHOULD/MUSTs.

Chet

I appreciate what you say, Chet, and I think you're quite on-target with a lot of things. But (I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to be as clear as possible) it's not so much that I don't like the world, or don't think it's how it should be. I mean, there are a lot of things that I think could be better done by us humans, but that's not the source of my despair. It's actually a rare source of hope. That we can recognize when things aren't so great, and then do what we can to make it better.

I think I'd have the same problems if it was a My Little Pony world with only giggles and rainbows and puppies. Whatever kind of world it is--good world, bad world--I just can't seem to find any reason to be here. That even if we can do a lot of nice things, what does it matter? Why bother? But I am well aware that this may derive from some sort of issue within myself, not some disheartening ultimate truth about the meaninglessness of it all. Maybe something in me is broken. But there are things that get through--witnessing the joy and suffering of others, beautiful music, good wine. Maybe I need to focus on these things more, instead of focusing on the dark side so much.

That's sort of the conclusion I've been coming to lately--that while I need to continue to practice, to continue to sit, that perhaps I need to step back and step away from all of this spiritual stuff and turn back toward the world a bit. I was sitting on my couch last night reading a book on Patti Smith's album Horses and was absolutely inspired by this story of someone who turned her back on religion and found her religion instead in art, poetry, and rock and roll. She took the same sort of sensibility I have, this intense doubt and disgust and anger and fire, but instead of succumbing to despair, found life instead... found celebration. And created something that has probably helped more people through those dark nights than any Dharma book ever could.

I'm not a musician and never will be, but I think I could stand to be a bit more creative, to express the rage and despair in some form that is not so rational. Why not take more joy in the feeling of being on the outside, knowing that I can fearlessly embrace the perverse as well as the holy?

I don't know, it's all a jumble right now and I'm sure Jundo won't approve of all of this mental blather, but there is something going on other than despair right now.

Who needs to find a reason? Why?

Chet

[will]

Re: Deleted by Will

Bob
but really, i got here looking for sangha, primarily to sit with -- great sitting with jundo, but really would like to be sitting with others

Hey Bob. My camera is broken recently. When, I get a new one I'll be there.

Gassho Will

[Jundo]

Re: Deleted by Will

Whatever kind of world it is--good world, bad world--I just can't seem to find any reason to be here. That even if we can do a lot of nice things, what does it matter? Why bother? But I am well aware that this may derive from some sort of issue within myself, not some disheartening ultimate truth about the meaninglessness of it all.

Yes, who makes these thoughts but you?

Here is another "Zen Cliche":

Do you do much hiking in the mountains? Fresh air, green leaves (and the odd soda can or plastic bag scattered about)?

Do you need a "reason" for the hike? Is it a matter of where you are trying to go? Do you keep moving forward, even as it is step by step by step?

Is that not a perfectly fine way to walk through the woods, and live all of life?

Do you need to judge the trees "good tree" and "bad tree"? Do you need to judge the leaves the same way, as somehow fulfilling or deficient in their "leaf-ness"? Does a small rock think of itself "there is something wrong with me compared to the giant boulders"?

Can you even learn to see the soda cans and plastic garbage in the same way (even, hopefully, as you pick some of it up!)

Can you learn to see yourself without judgment, as just walking this walk?

Might you (dream of all dreams) see the trees, leaves, you, the plastic and pop cans too ... as just the "walking", nature naturing and pop cans popping?

GET REAL! TAKE A HIKE IN THE WOODS! This is why Zen poets have always learned from the mountains.

Gassho, J

[Stephanie]

Re: Deleted by Will

I honestly don't know why I need a reason. Or feel like I need one. Why do I find life so lacking? I just don't know.

No mountains nearby, but I do enjoy a nice midnight hike across the Brooklyn Bridge. Perhaps I should do that more often.

Gassho.

[Stephanie]

Re: Deleted by Will

And I agree, that my thoughts often cause me problems. Sometimes they bring me joy. Sometimes they get me in trouble.

You're right too that I can be too quick to dismiss what others offer. But the malaise is deeper than thought. Sometimes, the more I sit, the more I let go, the deeper and stronger the despair hits. It hits in the pit of the stomach, like when you lurch to a stop in a car. I drown the thoughts out sometimes with music, but the bleak feeling persists. I let them go sometimes, on the train, on a park bench, in moments of silence, and the result isn't peace, but terror or melancholy. Sometimes the thoughts are the only companions in the darkness. Sometimes they are like black clouds in front of the sun, but sometimes they are like little silver fish, flashing through the murky depths of the ocean.

Underneath it all, I am frightened and alone, no matter what I'm thinking or who I'm with. I'm not doing myself any favors by exposing myself repeatedly to other people's traumas, but this is where fate has brought me.

It's not that I think you don't understand at all, or don't offer any good advice. It's just that it's not as easy as you make it sound. Sometimes sitting makes it worse. Sometimes the terror is silent.

Is this mental illness? Maybe. I need to sort that out.

[Jundo]

Re: Deleted by Will

I honestly don't know why I need a reason. Or feel like I need one. Why do I find life so lacking? I just don't know.

... But the malaise is deeper than thought. Sometimes, the more I sit, the more I let go, the deeper and stronger the despair hits. It hits in the pit of the stomach ...

... Underneath it all, I am frightened and alone, no matter what I'm thinking or who I'm with. ...

... It's not that I think you don't understand at all, or don't offer any good advice. It's just that it's not as easy as you make it sound. Sometimes sitting makes it worse. Sometimes the terror is silent....

Sorry, Steph. I just have more cliches ... and you are right that cliches only go so far.

I will tell you to drop all thought of "lack" or "fulfill", and thereby, all is Fulfilled (big "F") from the start, nothing lacking. I will tell you to stop pushing the despair away, and just accept that too ... as-it-is. I will tell you to drop all thought of "alone" and separation ... and of a "self" that thinks it can ever be alone.

But you are 1000% right that, unless you really feel these things in your gut, and come to truly believe them there, they are just words. Useless baloney.

As we have spoken about before, Steph, our Practice is sometimes not enough ... it does not cure every human ill. It will not cure your acne, fix a flat tire, cure cancer or even every psychological trauma and condition (it will sometimes only change how we experience all those things ... we can "be one" with our flat tire, cancer ... even depression). Sometimes anti-depressants, for example, or counseling are needed to get at something that will not budge. Some junk in our heads needs a little help to get pushed into the trash. Please pursue all available roads, neglect none.

But at the same time, please have TOTAL TRUST in what I am telling you about the root cause of suffering, about how you write much of the script mentally for the bit of theatre that you make your life, about how it is your judgements and ideas. Folks think, for example, "life is pointless, life is bleak" as opposed to "My 'self' is temporarily experiencing mentally dreamed feelings of 'pointless' and 'bleak' that are not how reality truly need be experienced". It is not "life stinks". Life is life, and we put the stink on!

Have faith in that, even if you cannot get it down into your "gut" yet.

Sorry I can't be more help, and sorry if Zen practice can only help to a point.

Gassho, Jundo

[Stephanie]

Re: Deleted by Will

You do help, Jundo. It's just that you can't fix my mess for me. I don't expect you to. Don't take my arguing with you as a denial or dismissal of you or what you have to say.

Your kindness helps, your patience helps, your suggestions help. Having dialogue and arguing with you helps. So it is too with all of the other folks in the sangha.

It's just that I've got a big ol' demon on my back and I'm coming to you and the sangha with something a little more potent than a mild curiosity about spiritual matters. I could give you the full background of my psychic drama but I talk too much about my crap here as it is.

I'm recognizing that to have demons is not necessarily an undesirable thing. You can work with that condition, and that's what I'm trying to learn. I don't want the same things as a lot of other people, but that's okay. I don't have to fight it, I don't have to force an "answer." That is the balance I personally am looking for, not to fight the fire in me and try to put it out, but not to let it destroy me either.

[Gregor]

Re: Deleted by Will

Is "balanced" the new "enlightened"? - Stephanie

Ha, that's pretty funny Steph . . . maybe balanced is jut the new black. It might be a bit of a stretch to call it the new enlightenment. Who the hell knows what that it?

Enlightenment - by Van Morrison

Chop that wood
Carry water
What's the sound of one hand clapping
Enlightenment, don't know what it is

Every second, every minute
It keeps changing to something different
Enlightenment, don't know what it is
Enlightenment, don't know what it is
It says it's non attachment
Non attachment. non attachment

I'm in the here and now, and I'm meditating
And still I'm suffering but that's my problem
Enlightenment, don't know what it is

Wake up

Enlightenment says the world is nothing
Nothing but a dream, everything's an illusion
And nothing is real

Good or bad baby
You can change it anyway you want
You can rearrange it
Enlightenment, don't know what it is
Chop that wood
And carry water
What's the sound of one hand clapping
Enlightenment, don't know what it is

All around baby. you can see
You're making your own reality. everyday because
Enlightenment, don't know what it is.

[disastermouse]

Re: Deleted by Will

It's okay that you have demons, Stephanie. In fact, instead of trying to get rid of them, invite them to the dinner table and listen to what they are saying. For me, half the job has just been listening to what my 'demons' are saying.

If you find life lacking, I again paraphrase Lin Chi: "What at this very moment is missing?" The whole universe is right 'here'. Nothing's missing. Nothing COULD be missing. If you have a deep and direct experience of that, it will go a long way toward shattering your suffering.

In my experience, therapy helped me a whole lot in sorting out my borderline stuff. 'Love' is a very painful endeavor for a Borderline, yet I just came out of a long relationship with only a relatively 'mild' state of emptiness. I don't have the words 'No one will ever love you' on auto-repeat in my head, I haven't been reduced to suicide threats or rocking, sobbing incoherence and unmoveable shame. These are things I thought I'd always live with, and yet, they are no longer with me. I attribute this to therapy and the great deal of work this last relationship prompted me to undertake.

Have you ever had a good therapist? They are typically expensive (mine reduced his rates for me), but often worth it. Zen and therapy are not the same, but your unflinching honesty gained on the cushion can only help you on the couch.

Chet