Celebrating Celibacy

[Gregor]

Re: Celebrating Celibacy

Great point John . . . god knows it would do me some good to follow that teaching.

[Jundo]

Re: Celebrating Celibacy

Hi,

I am watching a wonderful film on this topic, recommended by others recently. I find it handles the issues with great honesty and realism, very much in keeping with all sides of the question of celibacy for Buddhist clergy ... Also, a stunning and moving film. I give it "Five Bodhisattvas" (my highest rating)
(Jundo at the Movies)

SAMSARA - Synopsis: Set in the majestic landscape of the Himalayas and shot in glorious Cinemascope, Samsara - which means "the world we live in" - tells an epic tale of a spiritual quest. Tashi (Shawn Ku) is a brilliant young Buddhist monk who is just completing three years of solitary meditation in a remote hermitage. With long hair and beard and fingernails like talons, he is sitting in lotus position in a deep trance. Roused by a group of monks, he is taken back to the monastery to recover his strength. As he resumes a monastic life of constant prayer, he is honoured for reaching a state of advanced enlightenment. But surprisingly, despite a life devoted from the age of five to spiritual matters, he finds himself experiencing a profound sexual awakening. While performing a routine harvest blessing, he is irresistibly attracted to the farmer's beautiful daughter, Pema (Christy Chung). Arguing that Prince Siddhartha renounced worldly existence only after experiencing it, Tashi leaves the monastery to discover the bliss of sexual union and marries Pema who, it turns out, has spiritual wisdom that surprises and challenges him. Years pass, and Tashi reveals strength and acumen in dealing with the world, but there are many lessons still to be learned.
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/samsara/

[lora]

Re: Celebrating Celibacy

Hi, John,

Thanks for posting the video address. I listened to it earlier and found it to be of enormous benefit.
What it boiled down to, for me, was to stream-line and simplify my life. I've been meaning to clean out closets and the house of things anyway. They do weigh me down, even when they're not in view. A needing to de-clutter. Sort of a cliche, but to live a more "zen" life.

It's about being compfortable in my own skin, neither wanting nor needing others opinions. Letting go of cultural claptrap that is useless. And yes, being totally aware of the person who is watching me - me. That was a wonderful story he told about the theives.

I've been on a few silent retreats (though with others around) and I found them to be very peaceful and refreshing. The noise after I left was somewhat overwhelming and it took a day or two to adjust back to city life while attempting to maintain whatever serenity I'd received at the retreat.

Anyway, cudos to people who choose to live a celibate life AND cudos to those who choose not to!

A big thankyou again.

As long as we're trying to be awake.

Lora

[John]

Re: Celebrating Celibacy

I see a retreat as an artificial situation, without distractions, designed so that we can take the time to waken up and become more aware. Hopefully we then bring that awareness into our daily life
to embrace whatever constitutes our life, computers, t.v. books, relationships, work etc.

Hi Jenny,
Yes, I suppose a retreat is an artificial situation in some ways, but then again, it might also be more "real" too - we have just removed a lot of the everyday distractions from our lives. I think the main point about the video was the idea of simplicity in our lives. I used to think that people who went away to meditate by themselves for long periods were really suffering to try to achieve something, but that guy claims that he is really happy under these circumstances! I think I would be bored without all my toys, though. Or would I? Maybe I should try it again by having another retreat at home or by just simplifying by cutting down a lot of the unnecessary things I do. I do have a fear of being bored that I need to confront,

Good joke, by the way

Gassho,
John

Re: Celebrating Celibacy

I heard this joke somewhere.
A group of monks in a monastery (probably a Catholic one) spent some time pouring over old manuscripts, copying and illustrating them. One day one of the monks who had gone down to the cellars to do this didn't appear for some time. When the monks went to investigate they found him sobbing and crying. What was wrong they asked? "The word wasn't celibate", he sobbed, "It was CELEBRATE."

Gosh, I like this, though laughter wasn't my reaction.

Gassho--

[Jenny]

Re: Celebrating Celibacy

Hi John,
I see a retreat as an artificial situation, without distractions, designed so that we can take the time to waken up and become more aware. Hopefully we then bring that awareness into our daily life
to embrace whatever constitutes our life, computers, t.v. books, relationships, work etc.

I heard this joke somewhere.
A group of monks in a monastery (probably a Catholic one) spent some time pouring over old manuscripts, copying and illustrating them. One day one of the monks who had gone down to the cellars to do this didn't appear for some time. When the monks went to investigate they found him sobbing and crying. What was wrong they asked? "The word wasn't celibate", he sobbed, "It was CELEBRATE."

Jenny

[Alberto]

Re: Celebrating Celibacy

I like the definition of purity as the way things are before our intervention/interpretation.

An orgasm is real, while the Sutras are mental formations.

A good ol' in-n-out is waaaay more pure than this conversation we are carrying.

Back to celebrating silence:

A

Re: Celebrating Celibacy

Stefanie,

I wasn't thinking so much along the lines of "purity" (which is more of Christian concept, I think). No, I was thinking mainly about "simplicity". Sex and relationships are only one example of how we seem to clutter up our lives with things that we think we "need", "must have" in our lives. And so many of these so-called essential needs are, I think, only cultural conditioning. I mean, if I can sit at retreat for five days without talking to anyone, with no computer or TV, and still feel quite happy, then I am suddenly starting to question how essential a lot of the things in my life really are, and begin to realise that many of these things are just a big hindrance to my practice,

Gassho,
John

Oh, absolutely. I agree. I do believe that some people are of a nature such that they can be celibate and enjoy it. What I'm saying about the "purity" thing is that some idea of it seems to be the motivation for people who force themselves to become celibate when they really want to be having sex. Most people like that end up having some sort of sex on the down low anyway.

[John]

Re: Celebrating Celibacy

You're saying exactly what I'm trying to get across. That it's not "the facts of life" that cause suffering; it's our insistence that they be other than what they are that makes us suffer. I think a lot of people get caught up in delusions that the spiritual life is about making themselves pure, which I think is just another form of neurosis. The fact that this world is violent and built upon predation disturbs our sensibilities, and trying to pretend that we can take some sort of cosmic spiritual Windex and wipe it all clean is just us trying to deal with our anxieties about this stuff by escaping into fantasy and idealism. At least in my experience.

Stefanie,

I wasn't thinking so much along the lines of "purity" (which is more of Christian concept, I think). No, I was thinking mainly about "simplicity". Sex and relationships are only one example of how we seem to clutter up our lives with things that we think we "need", "must have" in our lives. And so many of these so-called essential needs are, I think, only cultural conditioning. I mean, if I can sit at retreat for five days without talking to anyone, with no computer or TV, and still feel quite happy, then I am suddenly starting to question how essential a lot of the things in my life really are, and begin to realise that many of these things are just a big hindrance to my practice,

Gassho,
John

Re: Celebrating Celibacy

disastermouse--

You're saying exactly what I'm trying to get across. That it's not "the facts of life" that cause suffering; it's our insistence that they be other than what they are that makes us suffer. I think a lot of people get caught up in delusions that the spiritual life is about making themselves pure, which I think is just another form of neurosis. The fact that this world is violent and built upon predation disturbs our sensibilities, and trying to pretend that we can take some sort of cosmic spiritual Windex and wipe it all clean is just us trying to deal with our anxieties about this stuff by escaping into fantasy and idealism. At least in my experience.

But I'm not saying there's no point to the precepts, or that practice is futile. I just think it's gotta be a different level we engage that stuff on, not a literal-minded one. One answer to finding that some aspect of your existence has suffering in it is to deny it, but another is to let that discovery invite you to face it more directly than you ever have before. What do you do then? There's a Patty Griffin song I like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeO63Trs5wk[/video]]

The Sunday after, there was laughter in the air
Everybody had a kite
they were flying everywhere
And all the trouble went away
and it wasn't just a dream
All the trouble went away
and it wasn't just a dream

In the middle of the night
We try and try with all our mights
To light a little light down here
In the middle of the night
We dream of a million kites
Flying high above
the sadness and the fear

Little sister, just remember
as you wander through the blue
The little kite that you sent flying
one Sunday afternoon
Made of something light as nothing
Made of joy that matters too
How the little dreams we dream
are all we can really do

In the middle of the night
The world turns with all its might
A little diamond colored blue
In the middle of the night
We keep sending little kites
Until a little light gets through

If you're with someone who's suffering, send a little light through to them. If you're suffering, let it go. That's the best answer I have.

Stephanie

[Jundo]

Re: Celebrating Celibacy

Hi,

I think that celibacy is a wonderful path of practice, for all the reasons set out by Ven. Ajahn Brahm.

I also think that marriage and relationships are also a wonderful path of practice. (By the way, "marriage" and "celibacy" sometimes both exist at the same time ... but that is another story. :| Hit the drum symbol. )

It is an interesting question as to which is the "easier" or more challenging path of practice. The Buddha advocated celibacy because he felt it was the easier path to Buddhist practice. He never failed to preach the Dharma to householders and married folks. For example, to the Householders in the Saleyyaka Sutta ...

7. "Householders, there are three kinds of bodily conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct. ...

8. ... He is given over to misconduct in sexual desires: he has intercourse with such (women) as are protected by the mother, father, (mother and father), brother, sister, relatives, as have a husband, as entail a penalty, and also with those that are garlanded in token of betrothal. That is how there are three kinds of bodily conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct.

In Nishijima Roshi's lineage, the inside joke is "alcohol no (except for some of us, in moderation), meat yes (except for some of us who are vegetarians), sex maybe.

Gassho, Jundo

Ps - I reprint that Sutta section in full, if anyone is interested:

7. "Householders, there are three kinds of bodily conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct. There are four kinds of verbal conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct. There are three kinds of mental conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct.

8. "And how are there three kinds of bodily conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct? Here someone is a killer of living beings: he is murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, and merciless to all living beings. He is a taker of what is not given: he takes as a thief another's chattels and property in the village or in the forest. He is given over to misconduct in sexual desires: he has intercourse with such (women) as are protected by the mother, father, (mother and father), brother, sister, relatives, as have a husband, as entail a penalty, and also with those that are garlanded in token of betrothal. That is how there are three kinds of bodily conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct.

9. "And how are there four kinds of verbal conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct? Here someone speaks falsehood: when summoned to a court or to a meeting, or to his relatives' presence, or to his guild, or to the royal family's presence, and questioned as a witness thus, 'So, good man, tell what you know,' then, not knowing, he says 'I know,' or knowing, he says 'I do not know,' not seeing, he says 'I see,' or seeing, he says 'I do not see'; in full awareness he speaks falsehood for his own ends or for another's ends or for some trifling worldly end. He speaks maliciously: he is a repeater elsewhere of what is heard here for the purpose of causing division from these, or he is a repeater to these of what is heard elsewhere for the purpose of causing division from those, and he is thus a divider of the united, a creator of divisions, who enjoys discord, rejoices in discord, delights in discord, he is a speaker of words that create discord. He speaks harshly: he utters such words as are rough, hard, hurtful to others, censorious of others, bordering on anger and unconducive to concentration. He is a gossip: as one who tells that which is unseasonable, that which is not fact, that which is not good, that which is not the Dhamma, that which is not the Discipline, and he speaks out of season speech not worth recording, which is unreasoned, indefinite, and unconnected with good. That is how there are four kinds of verbal conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct.

10. "And how are there three kinds of mental conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct? Here someone is covetous: he is a coveter of another's chattels and property thus: 'Oh, that what is another's were mine!' Or he has a mind of ill-will, with the intention of a mind affected by hate thus: 'May these beings be slain and slaughtered, may they be cut off, perish, or be annihilated!' Or he has wrong view, distorted vision, thus: 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed, no fruit and ripening of good and bad kammas, no this world, no other world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously (born) beings,1 no good and virtuous monks and brahmans that have themselves realized by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.'2 That is how there are three kinds of mental conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct.

"So, householders, it is by reason of conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, by reason of unrighteous conduct, that some beings here, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in states of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html

Re: Celebrating Celibacy

Everything in this world leads to suffering
Everything in this world is suffering.

That's what the Buddha saw.

I think you misunderstood that. Life itself does not cause suffering. Clinging causes suffering. This is my understanding, at least.

To live, we have to eat, which means to consume life, which means to kill (the first precept is an impossibility)
Just to live the simplest life, we have to take resources that are not ours to take (there goes that second precept)
"Sex is violent" (Jane's Addiction) -- it invades our emotional lives, dangerously, inescapably -- there goes the third.

No purity to be found in this world; just look at the lives of your spiritual heroes, you'll eventually find traces of "the red thread," sometimes manifesting in dangerous and destructive ways.

So what do you do? Carry around a broom to sweep the bugs out of your path, go vegan, sell your car and ride a bike, go live in a hut? I personally don't think any of that is the answer; I think it's all delusion. These people are chasing after ghosts.

But it's kind of what the Buddha did. The vegan thing is pointless - agriculture of any kind causes death to living beings (suffering? Who knows?)

I don't have an awesome answer to all this, but I do have a strong feeling that whoring out your soul to an ideal of purity isn't wisdom or compassion, it's just the ego assuaging itself, hiding from all of this scary stuff instead of dealing with it.

There is nothing you can do with sex -- other than sex -- all you can "do" with sex is to do sex. Or not...

Can you deny that sexual relationships lead to suffering? What is proper behavior regarding sex? I've never been able to have a sexual relationship without a great deal of attachment.

Yet, I feel like you - any attempt to repress my sexual and romantic urges would be a puritanical attempt at 'control'.

If you say there's no escape from suffering, aren't you denying the Third Noble Truth?

Re: Celebrating Celibacy

Everything in this world leads to suffering
Everything in this world is suffering.

That's what the Buddha saw.

To live, we have to eat, which means to consume life, which means to kill (the first precept is an impossibility)
Just to live the simplest life, we have to take resources that are not ours to take (there goes that second precept)
"Sex is violent" (Jane's Addiction) -- it invades our emotional lives, dangerously, inescapably -- there goes the third.

No purity to be found in this world; just look at the lives of your spiritual heroes, you'll eventually find traces of "the red thread," sometimes manifesting in dangerous and destructive ways.

So what do you do? Carry around a broom to sweep the bugs out of your path, go vegan, sell your car and ride a bike, go live in a hut? I personally don't think any of that is the answer; I think it's all delusion. These people are chasing after ghosts.

I don't have an awesome answer to all this, but I do have a strong feeling that whoring out your soul to an ideal of purity isn't wisdom or compassion, it's just the ego assuaging itself, hiding from all of this scary stuff instead of dealing with it.

There is nothing you can do with sex -- other than sex -- all you can "do" with sex is to do sex. Or not...

Re: Celebrating Celibacy

If a person's really into celibacy, then by all means let them embrace it--with both hands! haha!

I think the problem is that a lot of people try to convince themselves they're into that when they're not. The reasons for the attempts to convince being many, including puritanical notions of the loathsomeness of the body, a desire to escape, a desire to be in control (desire being one of the things that tramples all over our attempts at control).

That sort of contrived holiness ain't necessarily the door to the sacred... George Clinton said it best: "Free your ass, and your mind will follow"... :!:

Frankly, I don't know what to do with sex. I see how it leads to suffering, but I don't see a way to stop without also causing suffering. 'Love' relationships are almost entirely not love relationships. They almost always lead to suffering. Participating in relationships seems deluded, and so does avoiding them. I've never been able to really resolve this for myself.

:?

Chet

Re: Celebrating Celibacy

If a person's really into celibacy, then by all means let them embrace it--with both hands! haha!

I think the problem is that a lot of people try to convince themselves they're into that when they're not. The reasons for the attempts to convince being many, including puritanical notions of the loathsomeness of the body, a desire to escape, a desire to be in control (desire being one of the things that tramples all over our attempts at control).

That sort of contrived holiness ain't necessarily the door to the sacred... George Clinton said it best: "Free your ass, and your mind will follow"... :!: