Life cycle of a zen student? Jukai, Priest, inka?

[shikantazen]

I see these different terms and am trying to make sense of them. What does a zen student usually go through. I understand not everyone can be inclined to follow the same path

Is it something like this?

1. Student practices regularly
2. Takes Jukai and precepts, sews a okesa and follows precepts regularly and wears the okesa during zazen
3. Some want to dedicate their life to practice and zen and become priests; does this usually require few years of prior dedicated practice and a strong will to truth as verified by the teacher?
4. As your practice deepens and you realize the oneness and your realization gets the stamp of the teacher that's inka? You also have permission to teach
5. You become one of the dharma heirs of the teacher and you can also be declared as the dharma heir or successor of the teacher?
6. You continue to teach and pass on the teaching

Gassho,
Sam
STlah

[Sekiyuu]

I am not at all an expert, but I have discovered that every teacher and sangha has a different process. It is also very important to note that some sanghas make a very clear distinction between lay and monastic status, while others do not. Here are two examples I read recently:

This is from Jundo's dharma brother Brad Warner:

http://hardcorezen.info/faq-how-can-i-become-a-zen-priestmonknun/3574

This is from Muho, abbot of Antaiji, describing the official process for ordained monks in Japan, which is much more complicated than anything I've ever heard of in the west:

https://antaiji.org/en/english-what-does-it-take-to-become-a-full-fledged-soto-shu-priest-and-is-it-really-worth-the-whole-deal-1/

As thorough as these are, these are still not the whole picture. Perhaps the most useful thing I've learned about this topic is that Buddhism is not a single monolithic institution, nor is Zen, nor is Soto Zen. It is a constellation of lineages and traditions, each teacher and sangha being at least a little different in its formalities and structure.

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

[Jundo]

I see these different terms and am trying to make sense of them. What does a zen student usually go through. I understand not everyone can be inclined to follow the same path

Is it something like this?
[LIST=1][*]Student practices regularly

I always hesitate at the word "student," except in the sense that we are all practitioners and "students" and learn from each other. Perhaps some "friends along the way" have more experience, so can help as mentors for new folks. "Master" and "disciple/apprentice" is also something from the old world, except in the sense that there can be a master carpenter, master surgeon, master violinist who has some skills to pass on to others newer to the way. So, I like "friends along the way" who help pass on some mastery of skills.

[*]Takes Jukai and precepts, sews a okesa and follows precepts regularly and wears the okesa during zazen

Yes. I don't think that undertaking the Precepts ("Jukai") and the ceremony necessarily make on more or less a "real Buddhist." Living, as best we can, by the Precepts, and practicing and studying this Path, is much more vital as the lifeblood than any ol' ceremony. That is what is vital. The Jukai Ceremony and Okesa merely celebrate and embody that fact.

[*]Some want to dedicate their life to practice and zen and become priests; does this usually require few years of prior dedicated practice and a strong will to truth as verified by the teacher?

Yes, at least around here. I usually have to really have a good sense of the person (and they of me and this place), and that there is chemistry. That takes a few years to happen, at least, and only then would I even be open to start talking about the possibility. Our Sangha is softening the hard borders of "lay" and "ordained" because we recognize that, in modern times, Japanese Buddhist clergy are generally married and often have other worldly work and responsibility, so the role is closer to Protestant ministers or Jewish Rabbi these days. In any case, to be Ordained is a step downward, if anything, into a position of subservience and service to the Sangha.

[*]As your practice deepens and you realize the oneness and your realization gets the stamp of the teacher that's inka? You also have permission to teach

Inka Shōmei (Stamp of Certification 印可証明) is a Rinzai concept, and we usually say "Shiho" (嗣法) or "Denpo" (傳法, "Transmission of Dharma) in Soto. There is never any guaranty or promise in any way when someone is Ordained that this will happen. Frankly, in Asia and the West, it is also bestowed for other reasons beside some passing realization of Emptiness, and rather (much better) for realization in life. For example, the illiterate temple cook or local temple priest who just puts it out each day, manifesting some certain quality in their life, may say more through their actions than some mere passing "opening" experience and realization as you imagine this.

[*]You become one of the dharma heirs of the teacher and you can also be declared as the dharma heir or successor of the teacher?

Most folks these days don't make a distinction between "Denpo" "Dharma Heir" and "Successor." All the same.

[*]You continue to teach and pass on the teaching

Yes, the main role of someone who partakes of Dharma Transmission is to keep this moving on, and the flame passing, to future generations, as well as being the best light that they can to help folks in this generation who are in the dark. However, again, there is some stereotype in the west about what is a Buddhist priest's role, because we are so used to most here being folks who give talks and lead sitting groups. In Asia, it could be the folks who (literally) keep the roof on the temple buildings, the food cooked, the hospice nursed, the vegetable fields tended or, in modern times, the funerals conducted, the schools taught, or any other clean work. Some of the best priests I know are horrible public speakers or not good administrators, but show some other amazing embodiment of our path.

Gassho, J

STLah

PS -

As thorough as these are, these are still not the whole picture. Perhaps the most useful thing I've learned about this topic is that Buddhism is not a single monolithic institution, nor is Zen, nor is Soto Zen. It is a constellation of lineages and traditions, each teacher and sangha being at least a little different in its formalities and structure.

And it has been basically so for 1000 years and more.

[Nenka]

Claire Gesshin Greenwood's flow chart is my all-time favorite thing I've ever seen on this subject.

how a soto zen teacher guides students.png

(If the picture isn't clear, here's the original blog post: http://thatssozen.blogspot.com/2017/...rs-do.html?m=1

Gassho

Nenka
ST

[Jundo]

Claire Gesshin Greenwood's flow chart is my all-time favorite thing I've ever seen on this subject.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]6322[/ATTACH]

(If the picture isn't clear, here's the original blog post: http://thatssozen.blogspot.com/2017/...rs-do.html?m=1

Gassho

Nenka
ST

[shikantazen]

Great, thanks all for the replies

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Kokuu]

Hi Sam

I see the process of practicing Zen rather like life.

We all have different labels and roles - worker, boss, pupil, teacher, brother, sister, father, mother, priest etc - but underneath are just people living life and doing our best with what we have.

So, in terms of practice, a Zen newcomer is no different to the oldest priest. They sit zazen, maybe chant the Heart Sutra and read Dogen. Of course there is a difference in terms of what is expected and their degree of understanding but when they sit zazen, it is just the same.

There can be a process of movement through Zen if you feel called to ordain, and your teacher agrees to that, but whether someone has gone through Jukai, Shukke Tokudo or Denpo makes no difference to your practice. You can experience the same degree of insight whatever your label.

Someone once said that the important thing about wearing the robe is to see that wearing a robe makes no difference. It is just some bits of cloth sewn together using an old pattern.

Although, beyond that, it is also all of the buddhas and ancestors sitting together from beginningless time. Just as is the Rakusu. Or your t-shirt and shorts.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Jundo]

[Washin]

Someone once said that the important thing about wearing the robe is to see that wearing a robe makes no difference. It is just some bits of cloth sewn together using an old pattern.

Although, beyond that, it is also all of the buddhas and ancestors sitting together from beginningless time. Just as is the Rakusu. Or your t-shirt and shorts.

Gassho
Washin
sattoday

[Shinshi]

Hi Sam

I see the process of practicing Zen rather like life.

We all have different labels and roles - worker, boss, pupil, teacher, brother, sister, father, mother, priest etc - but underneath are just people living life and doing our best with what we have.

So, in terms of practice, a Zen newcomer is no different to the oldest priest. They sit zazen, maybe chant the Heart Sutra and read Dogen. Of course there is a difference in terms of what is expected and their degree of understanding but when they sit zazen, it is just the same.

There can be a process of movement through Zen if you feel called to ordain, and your teacher agrees to that, but whether someone has gone through Jukai, Shukke Tokudo or Denpo makes no difference to your practice. You can experience the same degree of insight whatever your label.

Someone once said that the important thing about wearing the robe is to see that wearing a robe makes no difference. It is just some bits of cloth sewn together using an old pattern.

Although, beyond that, it is also all of the buddhas and ancestors sitting together from beginningless time. Just as is the Rakusu. Or your t-shirt and shorts.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Lovely Kokuu.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Tai Do]

Hi Sam

I see the process of practicing Zen rather like life.

We all have different labels and roles - worker, boss, pupil, teacher, brother, sister, father, mother, priest etc - but underneath are just people living life and doing our best with what we have.

So, in terms of practice, a Zen newcomer is no different to the oldest priest. They sit zazen, maybe chant the Heart Sutra and read Dogen. Of course there is a difference in terms of what is expected and their degree of understanding but when they sit zazen, it is just the same.

There can be a process of movement through Zen if you feel called to ordain, and your teacher agrees to that, but whether someone has gone through Jukai, Shukke Tokudo or Denpo makes no difference to your practice. You can experience the same degree of insight whatever your label.

Someone once said that the important thing about wearing the robe is to see that wearing a robe makes no difference. It is just some bits of cloth sewn together using an old pattern.

Although, beyond that, it is also all of the buddhas and ancestors sitting together from beginningless time. Just as is the Rakusu. Or your t-shirt and shorts.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Thank you, Kokuu.

Mateus
Sat/LAH

[Meitou]

Claire Gesshin Greenwood's flow chart is my all-time favorite thing I've ever seen on this subject.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]6322[/ATTACH]

(If the picture isn't clear, here's the original blog post: http://thatssozen.blogspot.com/2017/...rs-do.html?m=1

Gassho

Nenka
ST

Ha, that's brilliant!
Gassho
Meitou
sattodaylah