Requesting Jukai Etiquette

[Tsuru]

Hi all, just a quick question that may be quite subjective. I’m curious to know how long those of you who have taken jukai were practicing before? I would like to take jukai soon but I am relatively new to my real world sangha (and even newer here, hi!) and for this reason I’m choosing to wait and become a more regular member before asking. I’d love to hear others experiences!

Gassho
Sat


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[Zenmei]

I’d been practicing for 6 or 7 months before I started the Jukai preparations here, so it was around a year before the actual ceremony.

It’s done once a year here. The preparations start in September and the actual ceremony is in January, so you’ve got plenty of time to hang out and figure out if it feels right to you.

Gassho, Zenmei (sat)

[Tairin]

I purposely waited for at least one Jukai to pass before I undertook Jukai here. I think I’d been formally practicing for just over of three years with a teacher at that point.

Like Zenmei said. You’ve got time to determine if this is right for you.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Onka]

Hi Tauru
I'd been sitting daily without a Sangha for around 7 months before I joined Treeleaf then around 4 months here before undertaking Jukai prep.
At the beginning I was worried about undertaking the Jukai prep and ceremony because I thought it was important for Jundo and the Sangha to get to know me better. I needn't have though because Precept study when undertaken with an open heart and honest participation most certainly gives Jundo and the Sangha plenty of opportunities to get to know you. Ask any of my fellow recent Jukaiies, Jundo, other Treeleaf Priests and the broader Sangha and I'm sure they'll agree that they got to know the good, bad and ugly of me as I was challenged andnchallenged myself, the Precepts and others a number of times *groan*. I got there in the end and it felt like I had really benefitted from the journey.
Some people feel ready for Jukai straight away, some take years and some don't wish to at all and that's fine. Here there is no difference between people who've taken Jukai and those that haven't or don't want to.
Jundo even says that some people choose to take Jukai multiple times throughout their life. All is good, don't worry about it.
Gassho
Onka
Sat today

[Doshin]

Welcome Tsuru,

I would add that maybe it also depends on what you want from Jukai. To me it was once againg embracing the precepts which I hope all humans do whether Buddhist, some religion or no religion at all. In my view they are light posts to guide my actions towards others and myself. I have been hanging around the Zen world for over 20 years. I have taken different vows/ceremonies at different periods but did not formally undertake Jukai until I joined Treeleaf five years ago. For me Jukai was making yet another "formal" commitment to my practices. It was also to identify with a Sangha to support my practice. I also learned to sew

I believe you will know when you are ready. Participating with this forum and group online sits will help inform you as well.

Peace

Doshin
st

[Tsuru]

Thank you all for these answers, and for being so welcoming. I’m already taken aback by the warmth of this community


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[Jundo]

I will just drop in my unscientific "survey" impressions about what other Soto Zen groups do ... it varies.

There are many that say that Jukai is fine any time, even right at the start of Practicing for someone totally new, whenever the recipient feels some resonance. In Japan and China, that is the general attitude too, in my impression, for lay Precepts (Nishijima Roshi was like this in Japan). There are other places in the west that I know that are the opposite, and make it extremely late and formal, with required waiting of a year or more, and all manner of preliminary studies involved. One group in Canada has this policy, for example:

After a minimum a year of practice as a general student and having studied the Teachings designed for general students and after having engaged in regular monthly retreat practice, if you decide you would like to become a deshi or formal student of a Teacher you can apply as a probationary formal student. ... This training will involve a period of at least one year or more of probationary practice during which you will receive frequent daisan or dokusan, so that you may establish the foundations for a strong Teacher-student relationship and develop a clear understanding of the radical challenges that your Zen practice will bring to you. Students who train under the direction of a Dharma Teacher meet with the Roshi from time to time, but receive the majority of their instruction from their Teacher. Following at least a year or so of training as a probationary formal student, and having completed the curriculum of study designed for probationary formal students, you may request, or it may be suggested to you that you begin to train for jukai, receiving the Transmission of the Bodhisattva Precepts and a Dharma name. It should be mentioned here, for the benefit of new students, that the Dharma names that most formal students have are not signs that they are "enlightened"; rather, they indicate the particular style with which that person approaches practice, and are thus used as reminders.

That is very unusual for Jukai, even in Japan. Most places are "in between" (Treeleaf is so), opening the door any time, but suggesting that the person first spend some time here to make sure that there is resonance and they feel "at home" here. We also reflect on the Precepts for several months, sew a Rakusu, and engage in some other practices. (I will tell you that many places in Japan, for example, do not require --any-- Precept study before the Jukai Ceremony, or maybe a few short lectures on the Precepts at most. They also do not ask for sewing of a Rakusu, nor bestow a Rakusu to lay folks in Jukai).

I also am not as restrictive on binding to me or this place as an exclusive teacher/lineage for example, like the place in Canada above, the Order of Buddhist Contemplatives (I think?) and some other western Sangha. Most western Sangha are not so exclusive in attitude either, although some are so exclusive that they don't even honor and recognize a Jukai from some other group (in Japan and America, I myself received Jukai a few times with different teachers who meant something in my life, like these teachers besides Nishijima Roshi: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...l=1#post257318 ) I feel that someone has a relationship with a place when they feel so and practice there voluntarily, and one can learn from many teachers (who, by the way, I prefer to call "friends along the Way" rather than "teachers").

Next, some folks in Japan and elsewhere believe that the Ceremony itself is all that is required because, mystically, the Ceremony itself works a kind of magic. It is kind of like those empowerments that the Tibetans do, so actually no need to really study the Precepts ... or even to try to live by the Precepts! The Ceremony somehow takes care of that mystically. That is a very radical interpretation, but it is actually held here and there in the Soto Zen world. Here, at Treeleaf, I believe that lay folks should make some study of the Precepts, but we recognize that we are imperfect human beings, not machines or saints, so we use the Precepts as guides and aspirations, realizing that we sometimes fall down.

Also, I think that the real "Jukai" is how we live each day, both before and after the Ceremony, doing what we can to live gently, avoiding as best we can excess desire, anger, divided thinking and the rest. That is what counts. The Ceremony itself, in my view, is merely a celebration of our seeking to do so. What really matters is how we live all the time.

Finally, in my view, the Jukai does not make one a "real Buddhist." If anything, it should make one more committed to helping other sentient beings, and place oneself a little bit more in a role of service to others in the community. One is a "real Buddhist" I feel whenever one seeks to sit Zazen, study the Buddhist teachings including the Precepts, and to live accordingly. Again, the Ceremony is merely a celebration of our otherwise doing so, and works no "magic" in itself.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Shoki]

Hi Tsuru,
I sat on my own for a few years, sat with a couple of different sanghas, but I just wasn't feeling it. I got disillusioned, quit for a few years, then started on my own again. I joined Treeleaf in 2015. I observed a couple of Jukai from the sidelines and was interested but unsure of upholding the commitments and sewing a rakusu. I PM'd Jundo with some of my concerns and he was quite helpful and reassuring. No pressure.

I committed to Jukai this past year feeling the time was right to enter the stream but was unsure of my ability to sew the rakusu. The Unsui went out of their way to help me with my sewing. I completed Jukai this year. I just thought the time was right. And it was.

Gassho
STlah
James

[Nanrin]

Hello Tsuru

Happy to share my experience here. I practised in the Theravada tradition for about 7 years before I found Treeleaf. A few years of casual reading and occasional meditation, a few years of serious study and committed practice. I found Treeleaf April 2018 and received Jukai January 2019. That worked out quite well for me. Some people hang around for a while before deciding to receive Jukai (I think there are even a few long-time members who have never taken Jukai), but most members participate in their first year here. As Jukai preparations don't start for another 6-7 months, you have plenty of time to practice here and decide what you want to do.

Gassho

Nanrin

Sat today

[Tsuru]

I will just drop in my unscientific "survey" impressions about what other Soto Zen groups do ... it varies.

There are many that say that Jukai is fine any time, even right at the start of Practicing for someone totally new, whenever the recipient feels some resonance. In Japan and China, that is the general attitude too, in my impression, for lay Precepts (Nishijima Roshi was like this in Japan). There are other places in the west that I know that are the opposite, and make it extremely late and formal, with required waiting of a year or more, and all manner of preliminary studies involved. One group in Canada has this policy, for example:



That is very unusual for Jukai, even in Japan. Most places are "in between" (Treeleaf is so), opening the door any time, but suggesting that the person first spend some time here to make sure that there is resonance and they feel "at home" here. We also reflect on the Precepts for several months, sew a Rakusu, and engage in some other practices. (I will tell you that many places in Japan, for example, do not require --any-- Precept study before the Jukai Ceremony, or maybe a few short lectures on the Precepts at most. They also do not ask for sewing of a Rakusu, nor bestow a Rakusu to lay folks in Jukai).

I also am not as restrictive on binding to me or this place as an exclusive teacher/lineage for example, like the place in Canada above, the Order of Buddhist Contemplatives (I think?) and some other western Sangha. Most western Sangha are not so exclusive in attitude either, although some are so exclusive that they don't even honor and recognize a Jukai from some other group (in Japan and America, I myself received Jukai a few times with different teachers who meant something in my life, like these teachers besides Nishijima Roshi: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...l=1#post257318 ) I feel that someone has a relationship with a place when they feel so and practice there voluntarily, and one can learn from many teachers (who, by the way, I prefer to call "friends along the Way" rather than "teachers").

Next, some folks in Japan and elsewhere believe that the Ceremony itself is all that is required because, mystically, the Ceremony itself works a kind of magic. It is kind of like those empowerments that the Tibetans do, so actually no need to really study the Precepts ... or even to try to live by the Precepts! The Ceremony somehow takes care of that mystically. That is a very radical interpretation, but it is actually held here and there in the Soto Zen world. Here, at Treeleaf, I believe that lay folks should make some study of the Precepts, but we recognize that we are imperfect human beings, not machines or saints, so we use the Precepts as guides and aspirations, realizing that we sometimes fall down.

Also, I think that the real "Jukai" is how we live each day, both before and after the Ceremony, doing what we can to live gently, avoiding as best we can excess desire, anger, divided thinking and the rest. That is what counts. The Ceremony itself, in my view, is merely a celebration of our seeking to do so. What really matters is how we live all the time.

Finally, in my view, the Jukai does not make one a "real Buddhist." If anything, it should make one more committed to helping other sentient beings, and place oneself a little bit more in a role of service to others in the community. One is a "real Buddhist" I feel whenever one seeks to sit Zazen, study the Buddhist teachings including the Precepts, and to live accordingly. Again, the Ceremony is merely a celebration of our otherwise doing so, and works no "magic" in itself.

Gassho, J

STLah

Thank you for this thorough response! I’m surprised by how formal and ordered thy excerpt is, I haven’t come across anything quite like that before. It seems that one would just ‘know’ if and when the time is right. It’s comforting to see such an open, supportive approach


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[Heiso]

Hi Tsuru,

I'd been hanging around different IRL Zen sanghas for a while but could never commit to attending with any regularity and then I moved away so I was sitting on my own for a good 5 years. I knew I was lacking guidance and instruction, I joined a few other online communities and found Treeleaf. Two months later I was undertaking the study for Jukai and it was the right time. I've heard sayings along the line of 'when the time is right the teacher will appear' and never paid much attention to them but funnily enough that's exactly what happened with me.

Gassho,

Neil

StLah

[Kokuu]

I've heard sayings along the line of 'when the time is right the teacher will appear'

This is totally true.

I was just reading some Zen and Jundo suddenly appeared in my bedroom!

Admittedly, it was via a laptop screen but still very mystical!

As others have said, there is plenty of time before the next Jukai preparations in autumn to see if Treeleaf feels like the right place for you. But even if you take the precepts here and choose not to stay, that is no problem.

Also, if you get to August/September and are still unsure, it is fine to wait for the next year, or the year after that etc.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Kendrick]

I hadn't been at Treeleaf for very long before I asked to participate in Jukai - 4 or 5 months I think it was. I have done self study and sat on my own for many years though (6 years or so I think it was?). I didn't finish Jukai because I became extremely busy with home and work while it was going on. I did just start back up where I left off on Mind Of Clover and I plan on finishing it and reading over the threads here over the next few weeks. I may take part next time and try again. Either way, I'm still here, and still doing my practice.

Gassho
Kendrick
Sat

[Hokin]

Hello Tsuru.

For what it matters I have been practicing the buddha dharma (or at least 'Tried To') for some 5/6 years, both by my self and with other groups/sanghas, before meeting Jundo and this beautiful sangha, and when that happened I felt completely right committing to Jukai study and the profound practice that it offers, even though as Jundo himself pointed out sometimes, and I feel that is certainly my case, people undertaking the ceremony are just renewing and giving somewhat a more deepened formality to the precept practice that is already ongoing...remembering that usually it is not that one is ever so "perfect" in his or her practice (again certaily my case!), but that if we keep sitting with heart and mind open and in a most sincere way, observing our thoughts, words and actions even during our everyday lives too in the most objetive way as possible without being harsh neither to ourselves nor to others but straightforward nonetheless, the practice will be "perfect"even amidst all these seeming imperfections we are working with....and maybe, I wander, this is just the way a Buddha is born: by awakaning little by little every time some imperfection is clearly noticed and let goof....maybe...

Anyway...I feel you are in a most beautiful place to be and practice...Treeleaf is a warm and very helpfully supporting family!
Just be yourself and feel free to do as you think fit (as long as you dont harm yourself and others...its ok, I think)...I know that you as everybody here and everywhere, are doing your best...flow on, Brother!

Gassho.
Arya.
Sat Today.

[Heitou]

What exactly is Jukai?

Gassho
John
Sat Today