Now, for the REALLY stupid questions

[Jishin]

okay -- i'm going to add my list of stupid questions -- because the fun of memory loss and losing words just makes life so much more interesting.

eventually i may start another post on this issue, but i don't have the time or the focus right now to gather my thoughts on my frustration at dealing with doctors.

why I'm not "sitting", or am I? i don't know.

-- if I am listening quietly to Kanho music for 15-30 minutes at a time, quietly, while rubbing painful knots out of various parts of me -- what is that? I'm sitting or laying, rubbing, listening, and doing nothing else. What is that? Not zazen, I guess not shikantaza, not samu? I can't sign "st" because it's not rightfully sitting, is it?

-- if i'm fatigued beyond ability to function safely, so i lay down but don't sleep and just focus on nothing (just exist) -- what is that? it's a state of exhaustion often accompanied by pain shooting all over my body, or different joints that feel like a bomb is exploding inside of them. how do I call any of that zazen? i can't stay still through that -- paradoxically, sometimes i am unable to move because movement hurts more.

-- often the only relief i get is on a stationary bike (slowly) while listening to something -- it puts me into a quiet state where i am not focusing on how my body is feeling, and it lifts my mind. but i can't call that zazen either -- i'm moving, and that's necessary to keep my joints functioning and sometimes the only thing that relieves the pain.

I need to ask these questions of doctors as well (like, why can't I remember things that I knew a month ago??), but that's a separate topic. I need to ask this stuff again here because I cannot remember any of it, which is another reason why I haven't been posting. What I live with, and what I remember zazen/shikantaza to be -- are incompatible, and something seems "off" about that.

So .... please untangle this for me. I'll deal with the medical issues separately, that's a whole other Pandora's Box for another time.

Gassho
Kim
(don't know what I did this morning -- listened to Kanho and rubbed pain areas)

Hi Kim,

Maybe these threads by Jundo address your questions:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15681-Zen-Practice-with-Physical-Illness-or-Disability

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12995-Signing-SatToday-Please-Sat-before-Forum-Chat

Sounds like you are doing the best you can!

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Jundo]

Hi Kim,

l would just offer that, if one is ... even for a few minutes ... rubbing painful knots, being fatigued and lying down, feeling the bomb of pain exploding, riding a stationary bike, with the attitude and faith deep in the heart that the rubbing, fatigued lying, exploding or riding is a Buddha rubbing, fatigued lying, exploding and riding, with nothing to change, add or take away (even though we also wish a lot of it would change and go away!) ... with faith that the whole universe is rubbing, fatigued lying, exploding and riding in that moment ...

... then that is Shikantaza.

On the other hand, if one is just "sitting around, twiddling one's thumbs and daydreaming," rubbing with no equanimity at all, lying down with Buddha distant, riding to get somewhere but here ... then maybe not Shikantaza, Maybe even all that is Shikantaza, but the heart can't recognize that it is so. That's okay, because on some days we just cannot find Buddha or a drop of peace and equanimity no matter how hard we try, especially when in pain. So, on those days, we just moan, rub, ride as best we can, trusting that it is Shikantaza although on that particular day, it does not feel so at all. Maybe tomorrow it will.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tairin]

That sounds exhausting. Much metta to you Kim.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Meian]

Hi Kim,

Maybe these threads by Jundo address your questions:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15681-Zen-Practice-with-Physical-Illness-or-Disability

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12995-Signing-SatToday-Please-Sat-before-Forum-Chat

Sounds like you are doing the best you can!

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Jishin, thank you - knew something existed, could not remember where and could not remember how to find it. Brain fog is awful. This was it.

Gassho2

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk

[Meian]

Hi Kim,

l would just offer that, if one is ... even for a few minutes ... rubbing painful knots, being fatigued and lying down, feeling the bomb of pain exploding, riding a stationary bike, with the attitude and faith deep in the heart that the rubbing, fatigued lying, exploding or riding is a Buddha rubbing, fatigued lying, exploding and riding, with nothing to change, add or take away (even though we also wish a lot of it would change and go away!) ... with faith that the whole universe is rubbing, fatigued lying, exploding and riding in that moment ...

... then that is Shikantaza.

On the other hand, if one is just "sitting around, twiddling one's thumbs and daydreaming," rubbing with no equanimity at all, lying down with Buddha distant, riding to get somewhere but here ... then maybe not Shikantaza, Maybe even all that is Shikantaza, but the heart can't recognize that it is so. That's okay, because on some days we just cannot find Buddha or a drop of peace and equanimity no matter how hard we try, especially when in pain. So, on those days, we just moan, rub, ride as best we can, trusting that it is Shikantaza although on that particular day, it does not feel so at all. Maybe tomorrow it will.

Gassho, J

STLah

Jundo - thank you. This is really helpful, and it really means a lot to me.

Having experienced a terrible feeling of being "spiritually homeless" because of this, which has made it even worse.

Twiddling thumbs and daydreaming doesn't happen.... occasionally I think for a moment of when I was 35 (I was in great shape then). But your description tells me that it is shikantaza, even if i'm not always feeling peaceful about it at the time. (Still working on the acceptance part, slow-going.)

Many thanks
Kim (Meian)
St

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk

[Shinshi]

okay -- i'm going to add my list of stupid questions -- because the fun of memory loss and losing words just makes life so much more interesting.

eventually i may start another post on this issue, but i don't have the time or the focus right now to gather my thoughts on my frustration at dealing with doctors.

why I'm not "sitting", or am I? i don't know.

-- if I am listening quietly to Kanho music for 15-30 minutes at a time, quietly, while rubbing painful knots out of various parts of me -- what is that? I'm sitting or laying, rubbing, listening, and doing nothing else. What is that? Not zazen, I guess not shikantaza, not samu? I can't sign "st" because it's not rightfully sitting, is it?

-- if i'm fatigued beyond ability to function safely, so i lay down but don't sleep and just focus on nothing (just exist) -- what is that? it's a state of exhaustion often accompanied by pain shooting all over my body, or different joints that feel like a bomb is exploding inside of them. how do I call any of that zazen? i can't stay still through that -- paradoxically, sometimes i am unable to move because movement hurts more.

-- often the only relief i get is on a stationary bike (slowly) while listening to something -- it puts me into a quiet state where i am not focusing on how my body is feeling, and it lifts my mind. but i can't call that zazen either -- i'm moving, and that's necessary to keep my joints functioning and sometimes the only thing that relieves the pain.

I need to ask these questions of doctors as well (like, why can't I remember things that I knew a month ago??), but that's a separate topic. I need to ask this stuff again here because I cannot remember any of it, which is another reason why I haven't been posting. What I live with, and what I remember zazen/shikantaza to be -- are incompatible, and something seems "off" about that.

So .... please untangle this for me. I'll deal with the medical issues separately, that's a whole other Pandora's Box for another time.

Gassho
Kim
(don't know what I did this morning -- listened to Kanho and rubbed pain areas)

Kim/MeiAn

I am so sorry that you are going through this. You already have had great responses. I'll add a reminder that in the very last of Taigu's Rakusu sewing videos he talks about a student of Kodo Sawaki who could not sit. So instead of sitting, he had him sew Rakusu's. One of my takeaways from that story is that you can approach many activities with a correct mindset and they become your sitting for that time.

The other thing I will say is that there are have been days where my back will just not let me sit for very long. So I don't sit very long. I just fit in moments of sitting when I can and I let them be just as long as they need to be.

Hope you feel better soon.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Meian]

I am so sorry that you are going through this. You already have had great responses. I'll add a reminder that in the very last of Taigu's Rakusu sewing videos he talks about a student of Kodo Sawaki who could not sit. So instead of sitting, he had him sew Rakusu's. One of my takeaways from that story is that you can approach many activities with a correct mindset and they become your sitting for that time.

The other thing I will say is that there are have been days where my back will just not let me sit for very long. So I don't sit very long. I just fit in moments of sitting when I can and I let them be just as long as they need to be.

Hope you feel better soon.

Thank you, Shinshi, and it's good to see you again. I've been wondering how your back is feeling.

thank you for the reminder -- it bothers me how much i can't seem to remember at the moment, but then later on it will probably all come back again (or mostly). For instance, I feel it never occurred to me that practicing sewing slowly is a form of sitting, or another activity is a form of sitting. But i probably did know this and just couldn't access it for now. but here it is as you posted it.

so i was at another doctor's appt and thinking on these things. i fell asleep while waiting for over an hour, doesn't count.

i'm grateful for all of these kind and helpful suggestions. i'm also glad to be home again. I understand that homelessness was an illusion but was still a painful experience.

gassho
meian
st