What is Zen compassion?

[disastermouse]

Hey all,

I just wanted to bring this up because sometimes when I hear people talk about 'compassion', they're talking about something very watered down compared to how it seems to me.

There seems to be this rather small idea of compassion where we should have concern for others because they are 'like' us - that is, that we are parts of a group or peers or something like that.

To me, compassion is something much more profound (and harder to realize). You are not 'like' your neighbor - you ARE your neighbor. You are not similar to him or her, you ARE him or her. A realization of this is how one has compassion for the whole world, including plants and inanimate objects.

All respect for Thich Nhat Hahn, but when he and other teachers describe 'interdependence' as though we are all parts of an interconnected web - that's really beside the point, IMHO. It's far too intellectual, far too watered down and removed from actual experience.

You ARE your neighbor. I think that until you realize that, your compassion will always come up short - based as it is on your own identity and relationship to the 'rest of the world' in what ever way you conceive that.

[robert]

Re: What is Zen compassion?

To me, compassion is something much more profound (and harder to realize). You are not 'like' your neighbor - you ARE your neighbor. You are not similar to him or her, you ARE him or her.

Chet,

I couldn't agree more. If one extends compassion on the basis of being "like" others, then there's always the option of withdrawing it on the basis that they are "not like" you. We see suffering generated in this way all the time, at levels ranging from personal to international -- e.g. the Georgia crisis or any number of other conflicts based on group identity.

Reminds me of the following... these are framed using the ideas of transmigration and rebirth but the main point could be seen as having to do with empathy. The Buddha suggests that we think of anyone you meet as being our kin, and regard the suffering (or happiness) of everyone else as something that has happened to us.

"A being who has not been your mother at one time in the past is not easy to find... A being who has not been your father... your brother... your sister... your son... your daughter at one time in the past is not easy to find." (SN 15.14-19)

"From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. When you see someone who has fallen on hard times, overwhelmed with hard times, you should conclude: 'We, too, have experienced just this sort of thing in the course of that long, long time.' (SN 15.11)

Reading beyond the "literal" meaning here these passages seem close to what you are saying.

Gassho,
Rob

[Taigu]

Re: What is Zen compassion?

Hi disatermouse,

Yeah...Dropping compassion and any definition of what it is seems to me a very good start.
The web is a convenient and dualistic picture that speaks to my dualistic mind. A great teaching tool.
if one tries to realize compassion, one misses it. Once you are grabbed by it, tossed by it, gulped by it, you don t even know its name. And there it is. There is a gap beteween any statement like: "I am my neighbour" and the reality of this. Don t you think? :wink:

Gassho

[Stephanie]

Re: What is Zen compassion?

Honestly, I've never really grooved on the formulation of it as "you ARE others." I don't find it any more mystical or any less of a self-centered way to put it than "you are like others." And, in a way, it's false. Yeah, sure, on some absolute level we're all the same thing, but in our day-to-day experience we have to deal with the other as the other. Saying, "We're all one, man," doesn't change that. I find that the awareness that we're not exactly the same is a key part of the experience of compassion.

The knowledge that I cannot ever really know another person's experience from the inside out alerts me to the fact that I have to find the time and patience to listen and enter into that experience as best as I can, knowing I can never know that experience exactly as the other knows it. It saves you from making a lot of assumptions and mistakes. Different people experience the same things differently, based on their past experiences, the way they think, the way they're wired emotionally. If you're open and intuitive, you can get a good sense of how something that feels a certain way to you feels different to someone else, but it's a sort of guesswork you're doing. There are definitely those mysterious moments where you just know something, you vibe off someone and it's as if their feeling is communicated directly to you, and you can act from that intuitive knowing, but you have to be careful there, too, because sometimes that strong feeling of knowing can be inaccurate. You have to check yourself. Before you wreck yourself :lol:

To me, compassion is a process of transformation. Empathy is part of it, intelligence is part of it, action is part of it. As with zazen, it is an emptying of the self, a process of opening. You let the other in, you let go of your thoughts and beliefs and just meet them. It's one of the most mystical, wonderful things possible to experience. There's a quality of love that enters into it that is absolutely beyond anything else you can experience. That you are so open to the other, so attuned, so absolutely ready and willing to meet them, that your heart is so raw, the tears just come... or perhaps they don't. Sometimes compassion is so simple and matter-of-fact, you see someone in a situation and it's communicated directly to you something they're feeling and needing and you are able to extend that to them. It's not exactly a profound or tearful moment when you realize the person next to you needs a tissue to blow their nose--but that's compassion too

To me, compassion is what makes life worth living. It's why and how you can continue to go on in the face of emptiness and impermanence. Otherwise, the void would ice you over from the inside out. If your heart has been broken by the world, you can keep on going, because it means your heart is broken open and ready to accept and take in the joy and sorrow of others, able to respond to them with openness, kindness, and intelligence. Living with compassion is like living art, every moment is surprising and poignant. Kids playing in the street just fill your heart with joy and you don't have to turn away from the homeless person sleeping near them, even though it's hard. You realize that all is just so, and you can be there and sometimes offer them a little something, limited and humble but something nonetheless, because something that is not you is moving through you, a love without a name or origin, to which you can surrender the puniness of your little self.

[Stephanie]

Re: What is Zen compassion?

And that's something else that's wonderful about compassion... that it is so creative. That you're put in the position of, "What could I do that would be most useful to the other person? What would move them, make them smile, get through to them?" You have to have an open heart but you also have to have the patience to get to know them, even if you only have a moment to do so, and the intelligence to know how to transform what you've learned into something that communicates to them. It engages you on every level.

[robert]

Re: What is Zen compassion?

Honestly, I've never really grooved on the formulation of it as "you ARE others." I don't find it any more mystical or any less of a self-centered way to put it than "you are like others." And, in a way, it's false. Yeah, sure, on some absolute level we're all the same thing, but in our day-to-day experience we have to deal with the other as the other. Saying, "We're all one, man," doesn't change that. I find that the awareness that we're not exactly the same is a key part of the experience of compassion.

Hi Stephanie,

I'm new here. Good to meet you!

And yes, you're right. "We're all one, man" is way too easy. Overlooking the otherness of the other, or making too many intuitive assumptions is likely to lead to misunderstanding, not a wonderful shared sense of "we-ness." Unless your intuition happens to be spot-on, which sometimes is the case.

However, for people like me who are NOT very compassionate and are prone to solipsism, couldn't it could be a good first step to try to broaden what we consider "our" experience? In other words, what happened to him/her could also happen to me, may happen to me, and might have happened to me already. Also: what I call "me" is the result of others -- family, community, friends, culture, genetic inheritance, etc. The elements that combined to form me have combined in similar ways in other lives and will do so again; much of what I term "my" consciousness isn't unique. "In the slow rise to the self, we're drawn up by many hands," as a poet once put it.

To me, compassion is a process of transformation. Empathy is part of it, intelligence is part of it, action is part of it. As with zazen, it is an emptying of the self, a process of opening. You let the other in, you let go of your thoughts and beliefs and just meet them. It's one of the most mystical, wonderful things possible to experience. There's a quality of love that enters into it that is absolutely beyond anything else you can experience. That you are so open to the other, so attuned, so absolutely ready and willing to meet them, that your heart is so raw, the tears just come... or perhaps they don't. Sometimes compassion is so simple and matter-of-fact, you see someone in a situation and it's communicated directly to you something they're feeling and needing and you are able to extend that to them. It's not exactly a profound or tearful moment when you realize the person next to you needs a tissue to blow their nose--but that's compassion too

To me, compassion is what makes life worth living.

You express this so beautifully that I feel a little chagrined. I'm very far from experiencing such a transformative process firsthand -- right now, the occasional moment of compassionate awareness makes me happy.

Rob

[Stephanie]

Re: What is Zen compassion?

Good to meet you too, Rob.

However, for people like me who are NOT very compassionate and are prone to solipsism, couldn't it could be a good first step to try to broaden what we consider "our" experience? In other words, what happened to him/her could also happen to me, may happen to me, and might have happened to me already. Also: what I call "me" is the result of others -- family, community, friends, culture, genetic inheritance, etc. The elements that combined to form me have combined in similar ways in other lives and will do so again; much of what I term "my" consciousness isn't unique. "In the slow rise to the self, we're drawn up by many hands," as a poet once put it.

Well, yes, of course. I think the key is actually realizing this, feeling this deep inside, versus just throwing out some mystical sounding language that doesn't really penetrate. I've heard a lot of flaky and un-compassionate people talk about how we're one, or the same thing. Anyone can say the words--it's doing it, feeling it, that is the real heart of the matter, isn't it?

You express this so beautifully that I feel a little chagrined. I'm very far from experiencing such a transformative process firsthand -- right now, the occasional moment of compassionate awareness makes me happy.

That is the process, brother. Just keep living it, it will get deeper and deeper, I promise. That is the mystery

[robert]

Re: What is Zen compassion?

Just keep living it, it will get deeper and deeper, I promise. That is the mystery

It's good to hear this -- thank you for the encouraging words.

Rob

[disastermouse]

Re: What is Zen compassion?

Honestly, I've never really grooved on the formulation of it as "you ARE others." I don't find it any more mystical or any less of a self-centered way to put it than "you are like others." And, in a way, it's false. Yeah, sure, on some absolute level we're all the same thing, but in our day-to-day experience we have to deal with the other as the other. Saying, "We're all one, man," doesn't change that. I find that the awareness that we're not exactly the same is a key part of the experience of compassion.

You're arguing with the concepts instead of going where they're pointing. I'm not saying, 'We're all one, man' and your reduction of what I said to that sentence shows me you have no real experience of what I AM talking about. If you had, you wouldn't say 'yeah, sure, on some absolute level we're all the same thing' - you're conceding the point in a way that shows you've never realized this.

The knowledge that I cannot ever really know another person's experience from the inside out alerts me to the fact that I have to find the time and patience to listen and enter into that experience as best as I can, knowing I can never know that experience exactly as the other knows it. It saves you from making a lot of assumptions and mistakes. Different people experience the same things differently, based on their past experiences, the way they think, the way they're wired emotionally.

The first part of this statement makes the argument against the second part of this statement. If you truly cannot know another person's experience from the inside out, then you can't know that different people experience the same things differently. Even if they say that they experience things differently, you cannot really know this. As a matter of fact, if you stick to what you can really know, you'll find yourself at 'I am the other'.

It saves you from making a lot of assumptions and mistakes.

Apparently, it doesn't. I wasn't aiming for mystical - I was aiming for the exact opposite of mystical. Any mysticism attributed to the statement came directly from you.

To me, compassion is a process of transformation. Empathy is part of it, intelligence is part of it, action is part of it. As with zazen, it is an emptying of the self, a process of opening.

Is that what zazen is?

You let the other in, you let go of your thoughts and beliefs and just meet them. It's one of the most mystical, wonderful things possible to experience. There's a quality of love that enters into it that is absolutely beyond anything else you can experience. That you are so open to the other, so attuned, so absolutely ready and willing to meet them, that your heart is so raw, the tears just come... or perhaps they don't. Sometimes compassion is so simple and matter-of-fact, you see someone in a situation and it's communicated directly to you something they're feeling and needing and you are able to extend that to them. It's not exactly a profound or tearful moment when you realize the person next to you needs a tissue to blow their nose--but that's compassion too

This sounds exactly like an un-contrived experience of 'I am the other'. Especially, 'you see someone in a situation and it's communicated directly to you'. This doesn't sound ANYTHING like the complicated and intellectual 'everyone sees everything different man, and you can never really know so you just have to guess' In fact, you said, 'The knowledge that I cannot ever really know another person's experience from the inside out alerts me to the fact that I have to find the time and patience to listen and enter into that experience as best as I can'. Great, but then you describe a process that sounds NOTHING like that.

To me, compassion is what makes life worth living. It's why and how you can continue to go on in the face of emptiness and impermanence. Otherwise, the void would ice you over from the inside out.

Have you truly had an experience of emptiness and impermanence? IT IS NOT A VOID. It's never been a void. Your description of it as a void shows you have no direct, unmediated experience of it.

If your heart has been broken by the world, you can keep on going, because it means your heart is broken open and ready to accept and take in the joy and sorrow of others, able to respond to them with openness, kindness, and intelligence. Living with compassion is like living art, every moment is surprising and poignant. Kids playing in the street just fill your heart with joy and you don't have to turn away from the homeless person sleeping near them, even though it's hard. You realize that all is just so, and you can be there and sometimes offer them a little something, limited and humble but something nonetheless, because something that is not you is moving through you, a love without a name or origin, to which you can surrender the puniness of your little self.

What you are offering is not limited or humble. It's the entire universe. It's everything. It might be a quarter. It might be nothing at all...but it's still the entire universe.

What you are describing sounds like sentimentality.

[disastermouse]

Re: What is Zen compassion?

Well, yes, of course. I think the key is actually realizing this, feeling this deep inside, versus just throwing out some mystical sounding language that doesn't really penetrate. I've heard a lot of flaky and un-compassionate people talk about how we're one, or the same thing. Anyone can say the words--it's doing it, feeling it, that is the real heart of the matter, isn't it?

What's mystical about 'you ARE the other'? I think you heard something I never actually said.

That is the process, brother. Just keep living it, it will get deeper and deeper, I promise. That is the mystery

Okay, THAT sounds like mystical baloney. So does all the talk about 'transformation'. What are you trying to transform? What are you trying to fix?

Chet

[Shindo]

Re: What is Zen compassion?

Just in from a run tonight. I came across a tailback of traffic caused by a broken down car in the outside lane of the road. Quickly stopped the traffic and pushed the guy and is car to the side of the road (his clutch had gone), where is was out of the way & could wait for the breakdown services. Shook his had and ran on (up quite a big hill ) and home. Whole incident took a few minutes - it felt like the right thing to do & didn't require any thought.

Kind regards

Julian

[Stephanie]

Re: What is Zen compassion?

DM, if you want a pissing contest over who has had what experience, I'm not the person to challenge. I'm not interested in proving to you or anyone else what I've experienced. I don't even know what I've experienced, myself. I'm a mess--I know it, everyone here who's acquainted with my posts knows it--and I can guarantee you I have no intention to present myself as an authority on happiness or enlightenment. But I have been practicing for years, and gained some hard-won wisdom through some damned hard times, and I offer my experience for what it is. I can tell you now, friend, that you're misreading my intent.

Please describe what you mean when you talk about "realizing I am the other." Tell me about your experience of this. Most of the people I've known who have used that phrase or one like it have turned out to be pretty phony people. What do I mean by that? That these people that lecture others about what compassion is and is not often seem strangely devoid of it themselves. Why this is, I don't know. And I'm not calling you out as phony--I don't know you well enough. Though I'm not sure, with the way you're projecting yourself here, that you're the kind of person I'd come to if I was having a hard time. You know? :wink:

Have you truly had an experience of emptiness and impermanence? IT IS NOT A VOID. It's never been a void. Your description of it as a void shows you have no direct, unmediated experience of it.

Honest answer is, I don't know if I've had the kind of experience you're suggesting I should have. But I'm wired such that I do experience what I would call "the void" at times. Very likely this is rooted in my own psychological conditioning as anything.

What you are describing sounds like sentimentality.

What can I say, I'm an emotional person. It's not real unless I'm feeling it. You feel me? :lol:

[disastermouse]

Re: What is Zen compassion?

DM, if you want a pissing contest over who has had what experience, I'm not the person to challenge. I'm not interested in proving to you or anyone else what I've experienced. I don't even know what I've experienced, myself. I'm a mess--I know it, everyone here who's acquainted with my posts knows it--and I can guarantee you I have no intention to present myself as an authority on happiness or enlightenment. But I have been practicing for years, and gained some hard-won wisdom through some damned hard times, and I offer my experience for what it is. I can tell you now, friend, that you're misreading my intent.

You seem proud of your spiritual and psychological achievements. Hard-won, huh?

Please describe what you mean when you talk about "realizing I am the other." Tell me about your experience of this. Most of the people I've known who have used that phrase or one like it have turned out to be pretty phony people. What do I mean by that? That these people that lecture others about what compassion is and is not often seem strangely devoid of it themselves. Why this is, I don't know. And I'm not calling you out as phony--I don't know you well enough. Though I'm not sure, with the way you're projecting yourself here, that you're the kind of person I'd come to if I was having a hard time. You know? :wink:

If you're looking for comfort, maybe not. If you were looking for something besides 'idiot compassion', I might be just the person to come to, you know? :wink:

Have you truly had an experience of emptiness and impermanence? IT IS NOT A VOID. It's never been a void. Your description of it as a void shows you have no direct, unmediated experience of it.

Honest answer is, I don't know if I've had the kind of experience your suggesting I should have. But I'm wired such that I do experience what I would call "the void" at times. Very likely this is rooted in my own psychological conditioning as anything.

But is that void the 'emptiness and impermanence' of Zen? If it isn't, then what are you talking about? I'm not saying you haven't had some experience you should have had - I'm saying that you might have interpreted what I actually did say with something other than, 'We're all one, man....'.

All I really wanted was for what I intentionally said to sink in without all the noise you have in your head about what sorts of people say things like that.

[Stephanie]

Re: What is Zen compassion?

You seem proud of your spiritual and psychological achievements. Hard-won, huh?

What is there to be proud of when you've got nothing anyone else would want? I would be shocked if the people who read my posts thought, "Wow, I really wish I was like her, roaming the streets of New York all strung out on dark emotions. That's what I came to Buddhism for--so I could find ways to be more messed up!" :lol: I throw my thoughts out there not because I feel I am saving the benighted with my wisdom, but because I enjoy doing so, because it helps me reflect, because it's a way to engage with others and experience the joys of communication. Sometimes the things I say are useful to others, sometimes not. Sometimes I've got some pretty smart things to say, sometimes I'm full of shit. That's part of the game.

If you're looking for comfort, maybe not. If you were looking for something besides 'idiot compassion', I might be just the person to come to, you know? :wink:

You really think you're somethin', don't you? I find your cockiness endearing. It makes me want to pinch your butt. :wink:

But is that void the 'emptiness and impermanence' of Zen? If it isn't, then what are you talking about?

The void--duh! :lol: In all seriousness, I'm talking about something I and others encounter in life, especially these days, which is a feeling of meaninglessness, a sense of nothingness. I don't think this is the same as shunyata but I think it is something one encounters along the spiritual path. Or maybe only people with psych issues encounter it. I don't know. All I can tell you, is that it's hard some days, to find a reason. On such days, compassion supplies that reason. I'd probably be dead or in a nut bin without having experienced it--both from others and from within myself. Although--WAIT--it's all the same thing, regardless of the source, isn't it! I GET IT MAN!! :lol:

I'm not saying you haven't had some experience you should have had - I'm saying that you might have interpreted what I actually did say with something other than, 'We're all one, man....'.

All I really wanted was for what I intentionally said to sink in without all the noise you have in your head about what sorts of people say things like that.

I'm genuinely sorry if I misrepresented you with my response to you. My comments weren't targeted at you in particular, they just arose out of my past experience with people who have insisted that the only correct understanding of the Dharma or compassion is that we are the same thing. It's not so much that I disagree or agree with this, either way--it's that I'm interested in what's practical, and find this teaching pretty useless in that regard, because we have to function every day as distinct, separate individuals and it's in that everyday world that compassion really functions.

[disastermouse]

Re: What is Zen compassion?

You seem proud of your spiritual and psychological achievements. Hard-won, huh?

What is there to be proud of when you've got nothing anyone else would want? I would be shocked if the people who read my posts thought, "Wow, I really wish I was like her, roaming the streets of New York all strung out on dark emotions. That's what I came to Buddhism for--so I could find ways to be more messed up!" :lol: I throw my thoughts out there not because I feel I am saving the benighted with my wisdom, but because I enjoy doing so, because it helps me reflect, because it's a way to engage with others and experience the joys of communication. Sometimes the things I say are useful to others, sometimes not. Sometimes I've got some pretty smart things to say, sometimes I'm full of shit. That's part of the game.

And all I was saying is, 'You're full of shit, Stephanie.'

If you're looking for comfort, maybe not. If you were looking for something besides 'idiot compassion', I might be just the person to come to, you know? :wink:

You really think you're somethin', don't you? I find your cockiness endearing. It makes me want to pinch your butt. :wink:

I was just acknowledging that I'm sort of an asshole, on the edge of things. Deep down, I'm a sweetie, but it takes a little while to see that.

But is that void the 'emptiness and impermanence' of Zen? If it isn't, then what are you talking about?

The void--duh! :lol: In all seriousness, I'm talking about something I and others encounter in life, especially these days, which is a feeling of meaninglessness, a sense of nothingness. I don't think this is the same as shunyata but I think it is something one encounters along the spiritual path. Or maybe only people with psych issues encounter it. I don't know. All I can tell you, is that it's hard some days, to find a reason. On such days, compassion supplies that reason. I'd probably be dead or in a nut bin without having experienced it--both from others and from within myself. Although--WAIT--it's all the same thing, regardless of the source, isn't it! I GET IT MAN!! :lol:

I'm not saying you haven't had some experience you should have had - I'm saying that you might have interpreted what I actually did say with something other than, 'We're all one, man....'.

All I really wanted was for what I intentionally said to sink in without all the noise you have in your head about what sorts of people say things like that.

I'm genuinely sorry if I misrepresented you with my response to you. My comments weren't targeted at you in particular, they just arose out of my past experience with people who have insisted that the only correct understanding of the Dharma or compassion is that we are the same thing. It's not so much that I disagree or agree with this, either way--it's that I'm interested in what's practical, and find this teaching pretty useless in that regard, because we have to function every day as distinct, separate individuals and it's in that everyday world that compassion really functions.

You're right, we do have to deal with people as distinct individuals - at least most of the time. I do think that the experience of 'self as other' can be a catalyst for compassion though - and when it IS actually your experience (not all the time), it is so much more powerful than the smaller compassion of distinct individual-hood. IMHO.