Multiple Lineage Holders

[Seiryu]

Dharma transmission can happen once, and only once, or never at all. Multiple dharma transmission is nonsense. If you receive dharma transmission from one teacher, from then on that is your one and only teacher, your real teacher (jap. hon-shi). The multiple lineage holders that you hear of in the West are bullshit. Therefore it is important that both sides, but especially the student, make sure that this is the right time for them to make this important step

I saw this quote on the Antaiji site and I am very curious what people’s thoughts on this are. Because from one side, I fully understand the point that is being made as I can see the possibility that someone with multiple lineages can use that to to say “look how enlightened I am, I don’t just carry one lineage I carry 4…”

yet at the same time I feel that this is a bit closed minded and, dare I say, has a vibe of dogmatism to it

Looking at the “non-weastern” teachers, didn’t Dogen receive transmission in a Rinzai sect prior to meeting his teacher in China?

I guess the sense of unease I get from this quote is the tendency of some people in a teaching position to try and invalidate other people’s path and practice solely because it doesn’t fit in with their particular view and particular path they are on.

I’ve met quite a few monks on my journey who had received transmission, and continued to deepen their practice with other teachers afterwards.

More recently, I have met a Zen teacher, who after having received Dharma transmission, went off to study with monks from a christain monastery to experience and centering prayer.

It may be that in studying this ineffable Dharma to the point of transmission, one doesn’t feel called to necessarily follow the template of teaching and starting a temple or what not, but wishes to continue diving into this inexhaustible beauty that is life.

The minute you brush off another’s path as “bullshit” you are essentially admitting that you think that you are right and those who do not adhere to your particular viewpoint are wrong. And to me that has a very "organized religion" feeling to it.


But what do I know…

Sat

Seiryu


P.S

Here is the link to the page I took this quote from...

https://antaiji.org/archives/eng/adult46.shtml

[Kokuu]

Looking at the “non-weastern” teachers, didn’t Dogen receive transmission in a Rinzai sect prior to meeting his teacher in China?

Hi Seiryu

I believe that Dogen studied with both Tendai and Rinzai teachers before finding his teacher Ruijing in China, but it was only from the latter whom he received transmission.

As regards multiple transmissions, I don't personally see a problem with it, since it seems to me to be granting you permission to teach in that lineage. However, firstly I am not in any kind of authority position to judge and, secondly, I have read that transmission in the west is viewed differently in that way (being authorisation to teach) than it is in east Asian countries.

I have just been reading How Zen Became Zen in which it is clear that dharma transmission is a one time thing in Song China, with teachers only being part of one lineage. There were instances of monks being offered to be abbot of a monastery if they would receive transmission from a particular teacher. Some accepted, others refused on the basis they remained loyal to their original teacher. Having the prestige of a successful lineage seemed to be important for both individual teachers and the tradition they represented.

That 'one time only' idea may have been continued until the present day in Japan but I rather see like you that multiple transmissions are not an entirely bad thing.

Doubtless Jundo can give you a better answer, though!

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Heisoku]

Hi Seiryu
I know nothing of dharma transmission but I get the feeling that you can only have one transmission as you can only have your dharma eye wholly verified once really.
After that verification what’s the point of further verification, as you are responsible for your moment by moment verification thereafter. I mean you must be able to make your verification your way.
As someone who has no idea and no verification nor transmission I suspect that you will need to refer to someone with more understanding.
Gassho
Heisoku
Stlah


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[Jundo]

Dharma transmission can happen once, and only once, or never at all. Multiple dharma transmission is nonsense. If you receive dharma transmission from one teacher, from then on that is your one and only teacher, your real teacher (jap. hon-shi). The multiple lineage holders that you hear of in the West are bullshit. Therefore it is important that both sides, but especially the student, make sure that this is the right time for them to make this important step

Well, that's Muho's view. It is also the official view in Soto-shu for a few centuries (they was a big debate on this once, centuries ago). Muho is kind of a "my way highway" kind of fellow sometimes, but that is okay.

It is likely that Dogen only had Dharma Transmission in the Soto line from his Chinese Teacher, Master Rujing, and not in a Rinzai line, for the simple reason that he never once mentioned the latter in his writings in the many many sections discussing Dharma Transmission and his teacher. He goes on and on about his teacher Rujing and the Soto transmission, and not one word about anything else. Some Lineages, such as the Deshimaru folks, seem to include a Rinzai line to Dogen, but there is no historical evidence for it.

I guess the feeling is that, like a parent, one can only have one father or mother. However, we can have many "teachers" in life, and that is not a problem. Nishijima Roshi received Dharma Transmission from Niwa Zenji, the Abbot of Eiheiji, but always considered Kodo Sawaki his first teacher. I received the Lineage through Nishijima Roshi, but had and have many teachers.

I think the image that "your dharma eye wholly verified once really" is a bit romantic as an explanation. However, in the past, there were cases of both single and various Dharma Transmission. Single seems to be the most typical in Mahayana Buddhism and Zen because, perhaps, the image of a Sangha as a family. There is one father, although one can have many uncles, brothers and sisters, friends, etc. That may be a Chinese Confucian influence on the Zen structure.

We actually have two "fathers" in Zen: Your Ordaining Preceptor (kind of like your birth father), and the Master from whom there is Transmission (the father who raised you). In Zen, as in blood families, they are usually the same these days, but not always. (It can be "mothers" too, by the way, of course!)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jundo]

In any case, this mostly concerns priest Lineages and family matters, so is not really important. Maybe it is like your wife saying that she would prefer you not to be married to someone else at the same time!? Or seeking to service in the French army and the UK army at once? Or to be a celibate Catholic Priest and a married atheist at once? Even some countries and companies would ask someone not to have dual citizenship or employment.

One might almost imagine someone who is from Puerto Rico AND the United States at once!

In any case, Dharma Transmission is not actually something that happens once, twice, endless times or ever. Nor is there one teacher and heir, nor many nor any at all. All borders and differences are dropped. When this is fully understood with one heart, then Dharma Transmission happens between one particular teacher and one particular student only once.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Seiryu]

Thank you Jundo for the clarification. I have no issues with that at all. I guess my initial issue with Muho's quote was his brash dismissive attitude over the whole idea.

SAT

Seiryu

[shikantazen]

A related question on this. What do you think about sitting / practicing with multiple teachers / lineages at different times? Over time I sat at different zendos in the lineages of (Mauzemi Roshi, Suzuki Roshi, Nishijima Roshi and few others) including treeleaf.

This is not intentional but depending on my job location I had to visit the closest zendo. Are there any downsides of this?

Also another totally unrelated question (too small to start a thread hence posting here). What are your thoughts on sitting more than twice a day on regular work days? Like 3 or 4 sittings regularly on all days. Is it recommended to limit such things to a weekend or a retreat period only?

Gassho,
Sam
Sat Today

[Jundo]

A related question on this. What do you think about sitting / practicing with multiple teachers / lineages at different times? Over time I sat at different zendos in the lineages of (Mauzemi Roshi, Suzuki Roshi, Nishijima Roshi and few others) including treeleaf.

This is not intentional but depending on my job location I had to visit the closest zendo. Are there any downsides of this?

It is a good thing to have diverse experience, but eventually most folks should settle down with one style (and that usually means one community and their style) that resonates.

Also another totally unrelated question (too small to start a thread hence posting here). What are your thoughts on sitting more than twice a day on regular work days? Like 3 or 4 sittings regularly on all days. Is it recommended to limit such things to a weekend or a retreat period only?

For some people, it is too much. For other people, it may be okay or very good. Everyone is different, and one must look honestly as to whether it is harmonious with one's life.

I think that, for most working people, that would be difficult. I also think it important to remember that Zazen is not a matter of quantity and time. I feel that, for most people, once or twice a day, for even a brief time or however long feels right, is the way to go ... dropping all thought of time and attainment. Then, sometimes, sit longer retreats ... although still dropping all thought of time and attainment.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Risho]

If you try to do everything, you will do nothing well.

If you know one dharma, you know all dharmas.

This reminds me of when beginner programmers, who have just started writing sample code, get really excited to learn. And they get this idea that learning the language they are learning is good, but they have plans to start learning all these other languages! And they just wrote their first println statement, and they are talking about becoming multi-lingual hahahaha

I think it's just a human thing - we get excited to change our lives. I think there is a bit of escapism in there as well.

But the thing is, and it's sort of counter-intuitive. It really takes like 10 years to become a solid programmer; in any case, by virtue of fully getting proficient in the basics -it's always the basics, with a single language, you understand all of the concepts behind all the languages. You really do - when you become proficient in Object Oriented Programming, for example Java or C#, if you know one, you'll be able to pick up the other no problem.

I would wager that practice in Zen or anything in life is similar. If you are an engineer, you understand first principles (as Aristotle - I think it was Aristotle) would say. And principles apply broadly to all instances.

So focus on principles - and the rest will take care of itself.

Gassho

Rish
-stlah

[Ishin]

Good questions, thanks all

Gassho Ishin
Sat.lah

[Geika]

I don't think it's a big deal... within limits, to avoid confusion and conflicting practice views. I have been thinking about joining a Deer Park group for Sunday walks and sitting, but just as a supplemental.

Gassho
Sat today, lah


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[Seiryu]

A related question on this. What do you think about sitting / practicing with multiple teachers / lineages at different times? Over time I sat at different zendos in the lineages of (Mauzemi Roshi, Suzuki Roshi, Nishijima Roshi and few others) including treeleaf.

One thing that has helped me tremendously in sitting with multiple groups from multiple styles and even completely other paths, is that I learned to keep a light heart with everything presented. What's top priority to one group is secondary to another (and vice versa)

Sat

Seiryu

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[Kokuu]

One thing that has helped me tremendously in sitting with multiple groups from multiple styles and even completely other paths, is that I learned to keep a light heart with everything presented. What's top priority to one group is secondary to another (and vice versa)

Seiryu,

Has it helped you to work out what your top priorities are?

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-