Oneness

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  • Kyōsen
    Member
    • Aug 2019
    • 311

    #16
    In Why Buddhism is True the author looks at Buddhism through the lens of evolutionary psychology to show why our feelings are unreliable indicators of reality. Millions of years of evolution have ensured that we are in bodies with biological imperatives that can sometimes conflict with our wish for liberation. For this reason, the author says that Buddhism is a "rebellion" against our very biology, which is why it's truly revolutionary.

    In trying to see reality clearly, in trying to see through what evolution compels us to think and feel, we come to rely on conceptual thinking and Jundo has skillfully recommended against this. We can't rely on a deluded mind to see through delusion - this is why we rely on the Triple Gem instead. It's not good for us to get too caught up in our concepts of One-ness or Emptiness or Buddhahood. We end up becoming preoccupied with things we've imagined and so we miss out on reality. The reality of Buddha isn't what we imagine Buddha to be; the reality of Emptiness isn't what we imagine Emptiness to be. Anything we can imagine, anything we can conceive of - it will all be marked by our own ignorance. It can be tricky, though, because at the same time we also have to trust in our own intelligence in order to navigate the teachings and do the practices.

    I believe this is why we are encouraged to not hold onto things like the Precepts too rigidly or too loosely. Because they're conceptual we shouldn't hold onto them too rigidly since we'll make the mistake of clinging to something that is marked by our own ignorance. At the same time, we shouldn't hold onto them too loosely because then they can't benefit us. So it is that we try to be more "natural" with our approach.

    Gassho
    Sen
    Sat|LAH
    橋川
    kyō (bridge) | sen (river)

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    • Onka
      Member
      • May 2019
      • 1576

      #17
      Originally posted by Risho
      Jundo that’s what I’m talking about!!! thank you

      I mean even if we feel separate or one or whatever feelings aren’t reality; our perception is flawed. In the end I’m not sure I even comprehend what it means that I am my wife, or that we are are all waves in the ocean. I can conceptually understand it and it sounds kind of neat, but who of us actually understands the underlying nature of reality? That would be us kidding ourselves

      All I can say is I don’t know if I’m being honest; everything being one sounds like a good fairy tale but from personal experience I don’t know so I would be reticent spouting out doctrines that are above my paygrade so to speak

      gassho

      Rish
      -st
      I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but for me this interconnectedness and oneness stuff comes down to basically reminding us that we're not special. Humans, particularly westerners have been bought up to believe the nonsense of the individual and that individual being somehow top of the food chain or whatever. Anyway...
      Gassho
      Anna
      st

      Sent from my Lenovo TB-8304F1 using Tapatalk
      穏 On (Calm)
      火 Ka (Fires)
      They/She.

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      • Risho
        Member
        • May 2010
        • 3178

        #18
        we’ll agree to disagree group think is a dangerous thing in our psychology; there is something in us with the mob mentality that allows us to ignore our personal responsibility; groups are members of individuals, and it is our personal responsibility to do whats right. that’s probably a sidetopic: I was just questioning this notion of oneness; i think you are right; interconnectedness is probably a better word for it

        I don’t think Western thought is nonsense; it annoys me when Western ideals get broadbrushed into being something negative; there is a lot of wisdom in Western thought.

        Individuality is not nonsense; having an imbalanced view of it is just like having an imbalanced view of group superiority is

        When I hear nonsense like the nail that sticks up gets hammered down, I think theyregoing to need a big hammer hahaha

        gassho

        rish
        -st
        Email: risho.treeleaf@gmail.com

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        • Heisoku
          Member
          • Jun 2010
          • 1338

          #19
          Carlo Rovelli has spoken on this oneness in terms of the interactions that make up all matter as being like kisses.

          The physicist and author on why our senses convey a picture of reality that narrows our understanding of its fullness.


          This is opposed to matter being something akin to a stone like Jundo describes as concepts or certainty.
          Therefore,
          Suchness, as-it-Isness, this, thusness can all be used to describe this non stop presencing and disappearing or dance of what we perceive of as reality.
          It makes every moment a magic , a loving , a kiss of a moment.
          Gassho
          Heisoku
          Stlah


          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
          Heisoku 平 息
          Every day is a journey, and the journey itself is home. (Basho)

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          • Risho
            Member
            • May 2010
            • 3178

            #20
            I can hear Jundo saying now children! lol I want to clarify I mean no disrespect; just ideas I play around with

            gassho

            rish
            -stlah
            Email: risho.treeleaf@gmail.com

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            • Shonin Risa Bear
              Member
              • Apr 2019
              • 923

              #21
              Time and time again we ask ourselves and one another: is the painted rice cake breakfast or is it lunch? _()_

              gassho
              doyu sat/lah today
              Visiting priest: use salt

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              • Hoseki
                Member
                • Jun 2015
                • 691

                #22
                Originally posted by Anna
                I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but for me this interconnectedness and oneness stuff comes down to basically reminding us that we're not special. Humans, particularly westerners have been bought up to believe the nonsense of the individual and that individual being somehow top of the food chain or whatever. Anyway...
                Gassho
                Anna
                st

                Sent from my Lenovo TB-8304F1 using Tapatalk
                Hi Anna,

                For what it’s worth I don’t think it’s not that we’re not special it’s just everything is special. Everything that is, was and will be have, are and will continue to participate in themselves and each other. Everything that was is still here because everything that is is made from what was and everything that will be will be made of what is now.

                Does that make sense? Big thing is not to get stuck on any particular viewpoint. At the end of the day our views enable us to see by bringing some features of our experience into the forefront and by moving other features to the back. Kind of like how I can only look at one side of my tea cup. Using a mirror doesn’t count

                Gassho
                Hoseki


                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                • Risho
                  Member
                  • May 2010
                  • 3178

                  #23
                  I don't think Anna needs anyone to speak for her - but I think she's right from a perspective.

                  From the perspective of self-aggrandizement and egoism, that individual is not special. That is what Dogen says in Genjokoan:
                  Driving ourselves o practice and experience the myriad dharma is delusion.
                  I was addressing individuality from a different perspective - that we are all actually very special - we don't need to do anything about it; I mean it's incredible that we have consciousness and everything else -->
                  When the myriad dharma actively practice and experience ourselves, that is the state of realization.
                  Hoseki, this is interesting how you put this:
                  At the end of the day our views enable us to see by bringing some features of our experience into the forefront and by moving other features to the back. Kind of like how I can only look at one side of my tea cup. Using a mirror doesn’t count
                  It reminds me of another part of Genjokoan, that's probably my favorite part of it just because of the poetry behind it
                  When we use the whole body and mind to look at forms, and when we use the whole body and mind to listen to sounds, even though we are sensing them directly, it is not like a mirror's reflection of an image, and not like water and the moon. While we are experiencing one side, we are blind to the other side.
                  Gassho,

                  Risho
                  -lahst
                  Email: risho.treeleaf@gmail.com

                  Comment

                  • Jundo
                    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                    • Apr 2006
                    • 40946

                    #24
                    Yes, humans are not special. Yet, everything is special. Ants and rusty tin cans and dog poop and galaxies are special. So, humans are special. You are special. All is as special as special can be.

                    Living this special-not-special is a facet of our practice as the shining jewel which is this universe.

                    We are totally dependent on some of those other special-not-special creatures and environments too, so we had better learn to recognize that. I will not say categorically for everyone that we should all not eat cows, but we should at least bow in gratitude before doing so.

                    Also, rusty tin cans, dog poop, car emissions and bombs are also special-non-special and, believe it or not, also jewels on Indra's Net that keep this whole wacky universe tied together. However, they are also jewels that we can do without or less, replacing them with other jewels like flowers and clean air and peace. So, bow to the rusty cans and dog poop, then clean it up. Bow to the car emissions and bombs, but let us work to make them smaller or former jewels.

                    This sense of interconnections and interpenetration is not merely intellectual. Dare I say, Zen is a "mystical" path of truly experiencing this Wholeness and Intra-flowing (I usually avoid the word "mystical" because it sounds like I am talking about sooth-sayers and oracle proclaimers, wizards and spirit channelers. However, it is a "mystical" path as I am speaking of a vital, visceral and boundlessly vast knowing of all this).

                    Gassho, J

                    STLah
                    Last edited by Jundo; 11-11-2019, 01:59 AM.
                    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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                    • Risho
                      Member
                      • May 2010
                      • 3178

                      #25
                      yes yes; that is so important

                      gassho

                      rish
                      -stlah
                      Email: risho.treeleaf@gmail.com

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                      • Seiryu
                        Member
                        • Sep 2010
                        • 620

                        #26
                        This sums it up beautifully.
                        [emoji16]

                        Sat

                        Seiryu

                        Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
                        Humbly,
                        清竜 Seiryu

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                        • Tai Shi
                          Member
                          • Oct 2014
                          • 3462

                          #27
                          It seems like some people have been reading their Dogen. I am a wave, I am the ocean, I am the sturgeon, I am the stream in that mountain valley, I am the wavicle in physics, I am the vapor rising into air the bird flies into sky, I am electricity in cloud from vapor that once supported fish. I am rain into field from water into cloud, that came from stream into ocean, and bird, fish who collapse at end of life span, into stream, for life in worm that becomes food for fish, becomes food for bird, who flies through oxygen, nitrogen, into field where farmer grows grain from dead bird living again in soil, which becomes food for women, for children, they become farmers, doctors, teachers, monks, priests, people, all can give ashes to worms, who become food for insects, and birds come again into sky, and sky becomes bird and rain becomes sturgeon who lay eggs for life. And mountain is washed be it by rain to the sea, and yet some becomes soil, and so on into infinite mater and energy, wavicle into physical explanation of what we do not know.
                          Someone has been reading her Thich Nhat Hanh, his physics, her biology, there is so much more and that is why it takes all of us.
                          Taishi
                          deep bows
                          sat
                          Gassho
                          Last edited by Tai Shi; 12-29-2019, 10:53 PM. Reason: spelling
                          Peaceful, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, for positive poetry 優婆塞 台 婆

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                          • Kyōsen
                            Member
                            • Aug 2019
                            • 311

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Tai Shi
                            It seems like some people have been reading their Dogen. I am a wave, I am the ocean, I am the sturgeon, I am the stream in that mountain valley, I am the wavicle in physics, I am the vapor rising into air the bird flies into sky, I am electricity in cloud from vapor that once supported fish. I am rain into field from water into cloud, that came from stream into ocean, and bird, fish who collapse at end of life span, into stream, for life in worm that becomes food for fish, becomes food for bird, who flies through oxygen, nitrogen, into field where farmer grows grain from dead bird living again in soil, which becomes food for women, for children, they become farmers, doctors, teachers, monks, priests, people, all can give ashes to worms, who become food for insects, and birds come again into sky, and sky becomes bird and rain becomes sturgeon who lay eggs for life. And mountain is washed be it by rain to the sea, and yet some becomes soil, and so on into infinite mater and energy, wavicle into physical explanation of what we do not know.
                            Someone has been reading her Thich Nhat Hanh, his physics, her biology, there is so much more and that is why it takes all of us.
                            Taishi
                            deep bows
                            sat
                            Gassho


                            Gassho
                            Kyōsen
                            Sat|LAH
                            橋川
                            kyō (bridge) | sen (river)

                            Comment

                            • Ippo
                              Member
                              • Apr 2019
                              • 276

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Risho
                              we’ll agree to disagree group think is a dangerous thing in our psychology; there is something in us with the mob mentality that allows us to ignore our personal responsibility; groups are members of individuals, and it is our personal responsibility to do whats right. that’s probably a sidetopic: I was just questioning this notion of oneness; i think you are right; interconnectedness is probably a better word for it

                              I don’t think Western thought is nonsense; it annoys me when Western ideals get broadbrushed into being something negative; there is a lot of wisdom in Western thought.

                              Individuality is not nonsense; having an imbalanced view of it is just like having an imbalanced view of group superiority is

                              When I hear nonsense like the nail that sticks up gets hammered down, I think theyregoing to need a big hammer hahaha

                              gassho

                              rish
                              -st
                              Hey Risho,

                              Nice post. I just came back from a monastery and there were many questions for the monks. It's interest because ALL the monks answers came back to ONE theme: take personal responsibility. It wasn't until Buddhism and practice that I realized the importance of focusing on my own development over worry about others. It's so much easier to point the finger away instead of inwards. Interestingly I also taught a facilitation workshop last week and the BIG topic was group think and how to avoid it.

                              Gassho,

                              Brad

                              SatToday
                              一 法
                              (One)(Dharma)

                              Everyday is a good day!

                              Comment

                              • Ippo
                                Member
                                • Apr 2019
                                • 276

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Jundo

                                This sense of interconnections and interpenetration is not merely intellectual. Dare I say, Zen is a "mystical" path of truly experiencing this Wholeness and Intra-flowing (I usually avoid the word "mystical" because it sounds like I am talking about sooth-sayers and oracle proclaimers, wizards and spirit channelers. However, it is a "mystical" path as I am speaking of a vital, visceral and boundlessly vast knowing of all this).

                                Gassho, J

                                STLah
                                Hey Jundo,

                                I have been meaning to ask you this so I figure this is the right place . Thich Nhat Hanh often talks about 'seeing the clouds in tea', 'the father in the flower'. Things like this sound poetic and beautiful. In my experiences I've never 'seen the clouds' in my tea. However I don't think he means this literally. I may be off in my experiences but I have felt, on many occasions the 'feeling' of the clouds in the tea. It's more of a feeling in my experience, kind of an implicit realization.......

                                Is this more or less along the lines of what he means by this? I have read your post I just don't want to assume your conclusion without asking .

                                Thank you in advance

                                Gassho,

                                Brad

                                SatToday
                                一 法
                                (One)(Dharma)

                                Everyday is a good day!

                                Comment

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