Question to those who experienced body-mind dropping

**Jundo** · 11-05-2019, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by shikantazen

I was reading "Just Sitting" book the other day. A teacher talks about body-mind dropping off. Not his exact text but it is what I remember. "As we sit for long without moving, the sense of edges of our body (sensations of our clothes touching the body etc..) start to fade and eventually we lose the sense of our body (aka the body drops off). Similarly thoughts are what create the sense of mind. When the thoughts disappear in zazen, we lose the sense of mind (aka the mind drops off). We realize we keep recreating this body mind."

ls that the portion by Master Sheng-yen discussing, not Shikantaza, but Master Sheng-yen's own formulation of "Silent lllumination" sitting that tends to emphasize various stages and experiences? Please let me know which portion of the book you are citing, Sam.

However, yes, in Zazen, the hard borders separating self and the external "not myself" at skin level and in the mind can seem to soften and fully drop away, such that inside flows out and outside in beyond "in" or "out." Then one realizes that the whole of reality is just you, and your "you" just a face of this. All facets of reality flow as all facets of reality.

More important than that experience if you ask me (and as eye opening as it is), is just the softening of self in which the self's selfish judgments, categorizations and demands about the world soften or fully release. Then, one radically accepts and flows as the world, warts and all, without resistance. One does not need to have a full dropping away to experience this, and it is more useful in a sense because one can remain in this life in which one needs a sense of "self" separate from "non-self," and also needs our judgments, categorizations and demands in order to survive and live ... yet one can also be free of them at once, all at the same moment. The total dropping away of a profound Kensho is a nice place to visit, and fascinating insight, but a person would not (and could not) really live there.

[*]Why do I keep re-creating the same body-mind even after dropping it? There still seems to be some attachment to this body-mind till I am dead I guess? Similarly others have attachments to their body-minds. This tells me there is division still and I need to protect my body-mind compared to others'?

You need a body-mind and its judgments, categorizations and demands in order to survive and live. Fortunately, you can also see through, and not be as enslaved by, the body-mind at the same time as keeping them.

[*]Since others still haven't dropped their body-mind, I am not yet done till everyone else drops their body-mind illusions too? In other words till I save all sentient beings?

Actually, as Mahayana 101, all the others (you too) have originally and always dropped body-mind from the startless start, although few sentient beings may know so. So, there is really nobody in need of saving, because there was never anyone truly in need of rescue from the get go. That said, we vow to take on the endless task of aiding sentient beings to realize this fact.

[*]They say what I am (universal self) is beyond time and space. The body dropping off addresses being limited to a space. Is dropping the mind related to the time aspect? Is sense of time only a creation of mind? Human beings do have a lifespan of say 100 years for the body-mind right. In that sense there is time to be passed before one body-mind dies and gets reborn as another (if they don't complete their journey in their life)

l do not put much trust in very literal and imaginative descriptions of rebirth into future lives beyond this one, except to say that you and l are reborn every moment and reborn as every baby or blade of grass everywhere all through time. All space and time, every moment and atom, flows in and out of all space and time, every moment and atom ... and also all past present future here and there are dropped away such that there is also no "space and time." l do not know if time and space exist only in mind or as an external reality, but both can be forgotten. 100 years or 1 moment or all the time of the universe is and contains every moment and all time. Hard to explain, but it is something like saying that every grain of sand on the beach is the whole beach with nothing missing (as if the whole beach and all the beaches of the world were held comfortably inside it) and also is every other grain of sand. Sometimes one can drop the sand from mind, and there is just beach. Sometimes one can drop beach from mind, and all is this one grain of sand. Sometimes one can drop all from mind, and there is just flowing. This is how Master Dogen and many other Mahayana folks experienced space and time.

Gassho, J

STLah

**Jishin** · 11-05-2019, 01:06 PM

Question to those who experienced body-mind dropping

Hi Sam,

My perception is that you lack trust in yourself, the Soto literature and the collective wisdom of your colleagues and teachers at the Sangha. At some point you need to ‘just sit’ all the way down and everything will fall into place. It is a tremendous waste of time to continue with the lack of trust after a while. Life is short.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

**Hoseki** · 11-05-2019, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by shikantazen

I was reading "Just Sitting" book the other day. A teacher talks about body-mind dropping off. Not his exact text but it is what I remember. "As we sit for long without moving, the sense of edges of our body (sensations of our clothes touching the body etc..) start to fade and eventually we lose the sense of our body (aka the body drops off). Similarly thoughts are what create the sense of mind. When the thoughts disappear in zazen, we lose the sense of mind (aka the mind drops off). We realize we keep recreating this body mind."

If I am re-creating this body mind, then it is temporary me and the real me is the "big mind" (as suzuki roshi calls it) or the universal self. Even others are this. So everyone and everything is me. Few questions on this to those who have experienced this

Why do I keep re-creating the same body-mind even after dropping it? There still seems to be some attachment to this body-mind till I am dead I guess? Similarly others have attachments to their body-minds. This tells me there is division still and I need to protect my body-mind compared to others'?
Since others still haven't dropped their body-mind, I am not yet done till everyone else drops their body-mind illusions too? In other words till I save all sentient beings?
They say what I am (universal self) is beyond time and space. The body dropping off addresses being limited to a space. Is dropping the mind related to the time aspect? Is sense of time only a creation of mind? Human beings do have a lifespan of say 100 years for the body-mind right. In that sense there is time to be passed before one body-mind dies and gets reborn as another (if they don't complete their journey in their life)

Gassho,
Sam
Sat

Hi Sam,

I don't know if this helps but it might. If you think of our concepts like time, body, space etc... as tools (or equipment) that we use to cope with the world rather than a picture or description I think many of these problems disappear. Just like most tools we typically just kind of use them without much thought. For example, if I'm going to write a letter I just pick up the pencil and start writing. I don't think much of the pencil other than finding it and starting to write. But if the tip breaks then all of a sudden I'm looking at the pencil to see what's wrong. My point is that words work like this as well. We use words like "time" so often in our everyday lives that we can simply use it without much thought. The confusion comes in when we take words that have practical uses and try to find them in the world so to speak. It works sometimes when the words have clear references like "blue jay" or "cat" but it gets more difficult when we get to abstract nouns like "democracy" or "justice."

At least that's how I see it. I would also add that everybody being one can sometimes make people (myself included) think of a single unify substance like energy. But in our lives most of the objects we deal with are considered one thing but can also be looked at as multiple things. When I'm going to write my letter I'm looking for a single pencil. But when it breaks I'm looking at the pencil as more than one thing. Its wood, a piece of rubber, and carbon shaped into a tip.

What is and isn't a thing or unity or has oneness depends on what your doing. So sitting Shikantaza is a practice where we are not engaging with the world in the sense of doing something. Were not doing nothing but we aren't doing anything either. We're just sitting.

Another way to look at could be like computer programs. If you image the brain as a computer (as I understand it the brain has often been compared to the latest technological marvel.) Then we have all sorts of programs that run in the background to make us functional. If you look up the book "The man who mistook his wife for a hat" you can see what happens to people when they have brain damage. Parts of their interacting with the world is normal but in some areas its different. In this context you can say that some programs no longer function due to the brain damage. So when we're sitting programs that aren't needed kind of go sleep. So we can see the world in a different way. But when we get up from our zafu's, chairs or what have you's. We still have to clean up the cat litter or do the dishes or try to negotiate a merger between two companies.

At least that's how I understand some of this stuff. I'm hardly an expert. Hopefully someone else will correct me if I'm wrong.

I should add (last thing I promise). The way I think of words and objects goes back to when I was reading and mostly misreading books by Wittgenstein and Heidegger.

Gassho
Hoseki
Sattoday

**shikantazen** · 11-05-2019, 03:50 PM

Thanks all for the replies.

Jundo, It is from a chapter by the author John Daido Loori himself called "Yaoshan's Non-Thinking". Page number 139 at the top. Here is the exact text

"When you sit for a while without moving the body, it stops receiving information about its edges through the senses, such as the friction of your clothing, or an itch on your leg. So, although you know the body is there, you don't feel it. Some people get frightened at this point and involuntarily their body twitches and defines its edges. Then they slowly move to that place again, and gradually they learn to trust it and they begin to go a little bit further each time. Next comes the off-sensation of the mind. The mind is dependent upon thoughts, but when the thoughts disappear, the mind disappears, the self disappears. That constant reflex action that says, "I'm here, I'm here, I'm here" is the ego manifesting itself. This is when we realize that we are constantly re-creating ourselves."

Gassho,
Sam
Sat2day

**Jundo** · 11-05-2019, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by shikantazen

Thanks all for the replies.

Jundo, It is from a chapter by the author John Daido Loori himself called "Yaoshan's Non-Thinking". Page number 139 at the top. Here is the exact text

"When you sit for a while without moving the body, it stops receiving information about its edges through the senses, such as the friction of your clothing, or an itch on your leg. So, although you know the body is there, you don't feel it. Some people get frightened at this point and involuntarily their body twitches and defines its edges. Then they slowly move to that place again, and gradually they learn to trust it and they begin to go a little bit further each time. Next comes the off-sensation of the mind. The mind is dependent upon thoughts, but when the thoughts disappear, the mind disappears, the self disappears. That constant reflex action that says, "I'm here, I'm here, I'm here" is the ego manifesting itself. This is when we realize that we are constantly re-creating ourselves."

Gassho,
Sam
Sat2day

Ah, that makes sense. The description of such an experience of radically dropping body and thoughts is correct, but the writer is from the Harada-Yasutani/Sanbokyodan Lineage that very much seeks strong "Kensho" experiences like this. I think they are over-valued as a goal by some of the teachers associated with that mixed Rinzai-Soto lineage that is known for their push for these experiences, and it presents an overly narrow and goal oriented interpretation of Shikantaza (the Lineage emphasizes such Kensho experience to be attained through intense Koan Introspection Zazen).

So, the description is right, but it is only one flavor of "dropping of bodymind."

You can read more about the Sanbokyodan, their heavy focus on reaching intense Kensho experiences like this, and the influence they have had in American Zen here.

Japanese Journal of Religious Studies 1995 22/3—4
Sanbokyodan: Zen and the Way of the New Religions by Robert H. Sharf

The Sanbokyodan (Three Treasures Association) is a contemporary Zen movement that was founded by Yasutani Hakuun (1885-1973) in 1954. The style of Zen propagated by Sanbokyodan teachers, noteworthy for its single-minded emphasis on the experience o/kensho, diverges markedly from more traditional models found in Soto, Rinzai，or Obaku training halls. In fact, the Sanbokyodan displays many characteristic traits of the so-called New Religions. (This is particularly noteworthy as the influence of the Sanbokyodan on Western conceptions of Zen has been far out of proportion to its relatively marginal status in Japan.)

NIRC

https://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/nfile/2582

The statement that our thoughts are constantly recreating our self-image of "self" is totally correct. In dropping bodymind, sometimes we can totally drop thoughts (and thus self), but more practically in "thinking non-thinking," the thoughts become translucent, permeable, there yet not there, so that they remain yet are also seen through at once. The latter flavor of "dropping while not dropping" is a wonderful gift to bring off the cushion, more valuable perhaps than even those momentary experiences of radical dropping.

Gassho, J

STLah

**shikantazen** · 11-06-2019, 12:50 AM

Thank you Jundo for explaining that

Gassho,
Sam
Sat2day

**Jundo** · 11-06-2019, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by shikantazen

Thank you Jundo for explaining that

Gassho,
Sam
Sat2day

As you have heard, I am sure, most Soto folks will say that such experiences happen, and they are to be cherished when they happen ... yet not run after or away from. As well, all things happen on the cushion, and it is ALL the trip. I sometimes describe it like this, on the Buddha Bus ...

Different folks approach and define all this in their own way. In our Soto View, some folks way way way overvalue an experience of timelessly momentary "Kensho" ... as the be all and end all (beyond being or ending) of "Enlightenment" ... and chase after it like some gold ring on the merry go round. For Soto folks, that is like missing the point of the trip. For Soto Folks, when we realize such ... every moment of the Buddha-Bus trip, the scenery out the windows (both what we encounter as beautiful and what appears ugly), the moments of good health and moments of passing illness, the highway, the seats and windows, all the other passengers on the Bus who appear to be riding with us, when we board and someday when we are let off ... the whole Trip ... is all the Buddha-Bus, all Enlightenment and Kensho, all the "destination" beyond "coming" or "going" or "getting there", when realized as such (the real meaning of "Kensho," or "seeing the actual nature"). This ride is what we make it.

...

Most folks just don't pierce that fact and are lost in delusion about the Nature of the trip. They may think the point is just to get to some destination, the "Grand Canyon" as the goal of the ride. Most sentient being "passengers" on this ride just don't realize that, feeling homesick, car sick, separated from all the other passengers, revolted or attracted to what they see ... filling the whole trip with thoughts of greed and anger, spoiling the journey, making a mess of the bus and harming themselves and the other riders, unhappy until they get to the "promised destination" somewhere down the road. They may even get to the Grand Canyon, snap a picture and buy a souvenir, then wonder "is that all it is"? They do not realize is that the whole trip is WHAT IS!

...

In the violence, ugliness, anger, greed and clutching, divisive thoughts and frictions of the world, this fact can be hidden, so hard to see. Thus, a key aspect of our Practice is to see and live free of the violence, anger, greed, clutching and all the rest to see this fact more clearly ... and even to realize it was there all along, though so hidden by the storm. ...

... The “ordinary and mundane” is never ordinary. Every moment and any encounter, each breeze and blade of grass is special, sacred, a jewel in Indra’s Net. Thus, I do not mean to lower the import of Kensho in the least, but just to RAISE UP all of life, and every instant of practice, to one and the same par with Kensho, for such is the wholeness, intimacy, unity that is KENSHO’d in KENSHO.
.
Realizing that fact – that the most “ordinary” is sacred and whole and unbroken – is at the heart of Kensho! Failing to see Kensho as extraordinary insight into the extra-ordinariness and sacredness of both the sacred and ordinary is not to see “Kensho.”

Gassho, J

STLah

**Horin** · 11-06-2019, 10:34 AM

I love that explanation jundo!
Thank you for those words

Gassho

Ben

St

Enviado desde mi PLK-L01 mediante Tapatalk

**shikantazen** · 11-06-2019, 05:37 PM

As they say, if you see the

kill the

Gassho,
Sam
st

**serenewolf** · 11-10-2019, 07:15 AM

Hello. I dont know how much this will help but I know that during my own meditations i have found two to three points of "dropping off". One is the sense of the body, after a certain point feelings of hot and cold and intchiness and pain dissapear. The next is mind where the thoughts slow to a still pond. Then there is a next stage where you can conciously attempt to drop "space-time". Letting go of the minds subconcious holdings such as where your body parts are, where you are, and the passing of time. This is probably one of the more advanced and dangerous states of meditation because the deeper you go the harder it becomes to return. Also it feels very weird when you start to let go of subconcious holding of body positions. These are very important things your mind holds and this shouldnt be done before one is fully ready for that level. But if you are ready for it then that may help. Dropping time can lead to extremely long or even potentially permanant meditation. I have only done it a few times due to it being hard to return from and never was long enough to affect health. I also recommend looking into the biology of the body and brain. I have asked the same question of why we return to this body mind if we are seperate and i can only guess however i suspect that there is evolution on a subconcious spiritual level.
Gassho
David
Sat/Lah

**Jinyo** · 11-10-2019, 09:27 AM

Hello Sam,

I think Jundo's answer of 'seeing through' is key, of thoughts being 'permeable and translucent'.
I don't know if Jundo will agree with this but I feel the above is still a state of mind. Nothing wrong with that in my view.

It seems a bit of an illusion to think we can ever really transcend our minds, anymore than we can really transcend space and time.
All of that is just a feeling tone - but having that feeling tone can teach us a lot. Zazen is both transcendence and highly practical.

Kensho experiences don't really attract me. When I'm out in the countryside - when I feel this body (and mind), with all its disquiets and pains, as part of
something much wider - and when in that relaxed state of intuitive knowing (the smile and 'hello' of every passer by no different or separate from my own) - to me, that is 'buddha nature'. It doesn't need to be any more complicated and the more we inhabit that very natural state of mind the better we function in the world IMHO.

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat today

**Seiryu** · 11-10-2019, 05:20 PM

My first moment in seeing "something" was when I recognized that the inner narrative that happens isn't the absolute voice of God (so to speak)

Imagine watching a baseball game on T.V and listening to the commentators. The commentators know just about as much as what is going on in the field as you do. They are simply commentating and giving their opinions on what is going on during the game. Now, if someone told you that if the commentators were not present there would be no game you would think that this would be a ridiculous statement. Of course the game goes on without the commentators. This is so obvious to us that we do not even question it.

Yet, that is exactly what is happening with our inner voice. It is simply commentating on everything. And just like baseball game commentators can be wrong about what they see and about what is happening on the field our inner commentator can also be wrong and is often wrong about what is going on in the world around us.

If you had a friend who truly believed that without a baseball game commentator there could be no game what could you do to help them see through their view? Bring them to a live game and allow them to see for themselves that not only does the game go on but it can even be more beautiful and more exciting without the commentators at all.

So, how can we help ourselves see that we are not our inner voice? This is where Zazen can really come in to the picture. Giving ourselves a space where we can sit silently and see for ourselves whether who we take ourselves to be, the thought we have of ourselves, is in actuality who we are.

But this cannot be done through intellectual reasoning since any form of intellectual reasoning must first go through the filter of the very thought we are trying to see through. Instead we must allow ourselves enough inner room and space to see through this thought without adding another thought to it.

Gassho

Seiryu

ST/LAH

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

**shikantazen** · 11-10-2019, 06:09 PM

Wow, three beautiful replies. Thank you David, Jinyo, Seiryu

Thank you David for such detail of what goes in advanced stages of Shikantaza. This is generally not talked about to avoid thinking about "stages" and "goals". But nevertheless this is good to know what generally happens. I will not try to look for any during my sitting though as it is complete as it is.

Jinyo, Thank you for "Zazen is both transcendence and highly practical".

Seiryu, That is a beautiful analogy. You carried it through very well till the end. Thank you

Gassho
Sam
Sat Today

**Jakuden** · 11-10-2019, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by Seiryu

My first moment in seeing "something" was when I recognized that the inner narrative that happens isn't the absolute voice of God (so to speak)

Imagine watching a baseball game on T.V and listening to the commentators. The commentators know just about as much as what is going on in the field as you do. They are simply commentating and giving their opinions on what is going on during the game. Now, if someone told you that if the commentators were not present there would be no game you would think that this would be a ridiculous statement. Of course the game goes on without the commentators. This is so obvious to us that we do not even question it.

Yet, that is exactly what is happening with our inner voice. It is simply commentating on everything. And just like baseball game commentators can be wrong about what they see and about what is happening on the field our inner commentator can also be wrong and is often wrong about what is going on in the world around us.

If you had a friend who truly believed that without a baseball game commentator there could be no game what could you do to help them see through their view? Bring them to a live game and allow them to see for themselves that not only does the game go on but it can even be more beautiful and more exciting without the commentators at all.

So, how can we help ourselves see that we are not our inner voice? This is where Zazen can really come in to the picture. Giving ourselves a space where we can sit silently and see for ourselves whether who we take ourselves to be, the thought we have of ourselves, is in actuality who we are.

But this cannot be done through intellectual reasoning since any form of intellectual reasoning must first go through the filter of the very thought we are trying to see through. Instead we must allow ourselves enough inner room and space to see through this thought without adding another thought to it.

Gassho

Seiryu

ST/LAH

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Question to those who experienced body-mind dropping

Question to those who experienced body-mind dropping

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