Few Zazen questions before rohatsu

[Meian]

my version of dealing with pain in shikantaza is a little different from the video and planning sessions.

the pain i experience never really leaves, so for me it's a matter of finding the position that will not cause harm.

there is no such state as "pain-free" for me. i often forget that this exists for others. but shikantaza helps me to remember to acknowledge the pain, accept that it exists, and just to be with it. sometimes the pain recedes a little, after i acknowledge it. other times it releases strong emotions, and i've learned to allow that to speak as well.

my point is that zazen has allowed me to be with pain and not run from it, not hide from it. i don't have a choice in its presence in my life, but i can choose how i respond to it. that doesn't mean i can do everything. sesshin is not something i would ever attempt in my foreseeable future, but I've known several dedicated Buddhists who attend sesshin fairly often. they go for a few days, to a week or more, and some attend several times a year.

it sounds worthwhile, and i would like to experience one (in theory), but i know that my body could not handle it.

if this practice of sesshin and long retreats works for you, then do it. but then work the sesshin, and learn from it. a day at the beach is not the same thing.

as jakuden said, the training you gain from this practice works when you're faced with stark reality that you cannot control, and life hits you in the face.

then, what sutras, what positions, how long, what cushions, hand mudras, postures -- none of that matters anymore. sometimes all you can do is sit in a chair, or recline in a bed, and shikantaza -- and nothing else matters. it is, and you are, and just "be." just my opinion and experience.

gassho
kim
st

[Jundo]

Thanks for your reply. I am specifically curious about this part in bold "there was no other place to be". Dumb question but can't I quit the retreat and spend rest of the day at a beach instead? Isn't that being able to change circumstances?

As Jakuden said, there is a difference between flowing with circumstances and running away from something to find something more pleasant. In Sesshin, one can run, but one cannot hide. There is a time to sit, and not run away to the beach, because one does not particularly wish to be in Sesshin. Otherwise, one might find that one is at the beach wishing to be at the mall, or in one's death bed someday wishing to be someplace else too!

You did not answer my question on whether they allowed you an alternate sitting posture such as a chair. Did you ask? Did they say no? I would be surprised. Where did you sit, may I ask, and who were the teachers there?

Muho is crazy wicked with that Full Lotus, but it is not for everybody (and I do not even think it healthy for most westerners). They are also quite intense in their 15 hours-a-day of sitting in Muho's group at Antaiji (as Kyonin can testify from his recent Sesshin there). It is definitely the LONNNNNGGGGG of sitting "long and short." It is not for everybody. Muho is Muho. Maybe good for some people to sit that hard once in awhile (done that), and do a real "no place to run," but I do not think it needed for most Retreats. All things in moderation. On the other (sound of one hand) hand, one day and fleeing to the beach is not good either.

We sit with a little discomfort sometimes for many reasons (including as a little lesson that life is sometimes uncomfortable and there is an element of "mind of matter" about it.) However, I tell people not to sit until the point where there is a real threat of damage to the body (I know more than a few Japanese Zen folks with bad knees from too much Full Lotus). Also, if it becomes mentally too much, even after pushing the comfort zone a bit, then switch to an alternative posture.

The Kogen Keith article seems more geared to intense Koan Introspection retreats than Shikantaza, and his talk about Zombies and corpses is a bit over the top, but his rules 1 through 7 seem very practical (the last one about staying up all night, well, done that and it is a worthwhile experience ... but not for everyone or all the time).

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

PS - Folks like Kim are our teachers on what it means to live with real pain all or much of the time.

[shikantazen]

It was at a local zen center near my place. I didn't know the teacher and I didn't tell them about the pain. He was too busy with all the schedule and I didn't bother disturbing him. I sat without moving for 1.5 days and then just escaped calmly. They had a four hour break between lunch and evening sitting too and I wished I was with my kids rather than wasting my time with "Yoga class" and "Personal Time" during the retreat (I wouldn't have probably skipped if there was a zazen immediately). So that gap of four hours made me leave in a way. I understand everything in retreat is practice but I can't help loving sitting more

At antaiji each sitting is for an hour. Even shohaku okamura's center in US the sitting is longer (50 min). I believe this probably stems form asian emphasis on discipline and pushing themselves.

Thanks for the warning on full lotus issues. I will not push myself on that.

Gassho,
Sam
Sat

[Jundo]

At antaiji each sitting is for an hour.

Kyonin was just there as part of his Japan pilgrimage. You can hear Kyonin speak about it ... He says Zazen 50 minutes with 10 minutes of Kinhin.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?17242-KYONIN-%28and-Jundo-s%29-TRAVEL-DIARY-in-JAPAN&p=252107&viewfull=1#post252107

One time Muho saw one of my Zazen demonstrations sitting in the front seat of a car for about 20 minutes in a parking lot next to a busy highway. We noted our differences in style, but both are good Zazen beyond long or short, place and time. There is a time to sit for 50 minutes x 15 hours x one week ... and a time to sit for some minutes next to a highway. Both are vital aspects of this Path.

Gassho, Jundo

[Shoka]

It was at a local zen center near my place. I didn't know the teacher and I didn't tell them about the pain. He was too busy with all the schedule and I didn't bother disturbing him. I sat without moving for 1.5 days and then just escaped calmly. They had a four hour break between lunch and evening sitting too and I wished I was with my kids rather than wasting my time with "Yoga class" and "Personal Time" during the retreat (I wouldn't have probably skipped if there was a zazen immediately). So that gap of four hours made me leave in a way. I understand everything in retreat is practice but I can't help loving sitting more

At antaiji each sitting is for an hour. Even shohaku okamura's center in US the sitting is longer (50 min). I believe this probably stems form asian emphasis on discipline and pushing themselves.

Thanks for the warning on full lotus issues. I will not push myself on that.

Gassho,
Sam
Sat

Sam,

I have attended one in person retreat and 4 Treeleaf Rohatsu retreats; all of them were challenging and had the moments of "why am I doing this?" For me part of the point of the retreat is to really look at those take-aways and work with those.

For example at the in-person retreat, my major take away was that it wasn't different than Treeleaf. The same instructions that we receive before retreat were given there, the same chants, the same ceremonies, and the same pain, stiffness and longing to do something else.

Each year rohatsu holds something different for me. The first year, we were on schedule with Japan time; so there were a few things very late into the night. I remember towards the end of the day (which was at like 1 a.m. my time) doing kinhin and it was the first time that it really made sense to me. The feeling of getting up off the cushion and really taking each step in each moment. Before that I had never had that feeling I had always hated kinhin because it was too slow and I would rather go sit on the couch or stretch for a few minutes than walk super slow.

The next year I remember having much more trouble with feeling like I was wasting time, there is always so much to do and I wanted to make calls, do emails, check facebook because those were more important or seemed like a better use of my time than sitting for hours and hours.

This year I'm very much looking forward to Rohatsu, even through I know the pain that come along, the boredom, the unending stream of "you should be doing this instead" type thoughts. Retreat is a time to really face those things. What do we use as a distraction, what do we put priority or what do we under value?

I think instead of asking the question of how important retreats, you might spend some time reflecting on why it wasn't important enough to stay. Or what hurdles you faced and didn't jump; and if that was the right move? As well as if just going was a huge hurdle that you are happy you jumped, even if the end wasn't what you had hoped for.

I honestly find the reflection and thinking deeply on what occurred or didn't, to be very helpful in my practice and seeing what road blocks I perhaps need to work with.

Also there is another chance for a two day retreat in just over a month, when we do the Rohatsu retreat. So maybe plan to join us for that and see if the same things come up or if something different happens.

Gassho,

Shoka
sattoday

[shikantazen]

Wow Shoka, blown away with your post. You spoke directly to my concerns.

Gassho,
Sam
Sat2day

[Jundo]

Wow Shoka, blown away with your post. You spoke directly to my concerns.

Gassho,
Sam
Sat2day

Yes indeed. Thank you, Shoka.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Meian]

kim
st lh