Few Zazen questions before rohatsu

[shikantazen]

I plan to attend a rohatsu sesshin at a local zen center and have some questions around my practice

Pain during zazen: I often have pain in the neck area, lower back and upper thighs. A sesshin will sure make the pain more. What does pain signify and how do we endure pain during zazen.

Hand mudra: I sit in burmese and rest my hands in lap. So my hand mudra is much lower beyond my tanden area. Is it recommended to have the mudra below navel circling the tanden area? If so do you recommend holding the hands up instead of resting in the lap

Swallowing: I see some folks don't swallow and sit still. I often find myself the need to swallow and make slight sounds. How do I deal with this? Itching, needing to cough etc.. I deal fine by not giving in

Moving: I see different instructions about moving during zazen. some say not to move even an inch despite pain, itchiness etc..; Other instruction says to adjust posture when caught up in thoughts (Nishijima roshi's suggestions are to adjust even more frequently).

Giving up: Let's say I couldn't take the back to back sittings during the sesshin. What are some better alternatives to totally quitting and going home? Like skip some sittings, sit in chair etc..

Gassho,
Sam
Satlah

[Daitetsu]

Hi Sam,

Just a few spontaneous thoughts:

Swallowing: Cannot be avoided entirely, but it is only a problem if you perceive it to be a problem. I can recommend to put the tongue to the roof of the mouth. This helps a lot IMHO.
Hand mudra: Everyone has a different physique, a different body and I would not care too much about this.
Pain: A bit pain is probably normal, but I think you know your body best. If you get the impression you are damaging yourself, then I would switch position. Sitting in a chair? Why not? Our practice is not about pride.

When I began practicing years ago I always sat through pain, even when it was severe. I think that was a mistake. Since I simply ignored the signs of my body, I had some trouble with my knees for weeks.
The doc told me if I keep on doing such things, surgery might be the result.
Nowadays I take things easier and I can only recommend to listen to your body. You know yourself best. No false pride, you gain nothing if you damage yourself. Or simply stated: health comes first!

Don't think too much, relax - take the plunge, just do it and look what will happen.

Good luck with the sesshin!

Gassho,

Daitetsu

#sat2day

[Jakuden]

I plan to attend a rohatsu sesshin at a local zen center and have some questions around my practice

Pain during zazen: I often have pain in the neck area, lower back and upper thighs. A sesshin will sure make the pain more. What does pain signify and how do we endure pain during zazen.

Hand mudra: I sit in burmese and rest my hands in lap. So my hand mudra is much lower beyond my tanden area. Is it recommended to have the mudra below navel circling the tanden area? If so do you recommend holding the hands up instead of resting in the lap

Swallowing: I see some folks don't swallow and sit still. I often find myself the need to swallow and make slight sounds. How do I deal with this? Itching, needing to cough etc.. I deal fine by not giving in

Moving: I see different instructions about moving during zazen. some say not to move even an inch despite pain, itchiness etc..; Other instruction says to adjust posture when caught up in thoughts (Nishijima roshi's suggestions are to adjust even more frequently).

Giving up: Let's say I couldn't take the back to back sittings during the sesshin. What are some better alternatives to totally quitting and going home? Like skip some sittings, sit in chair etc..

Gassho,
Sam
Satlah

Hi Sam! Each Zen Center has its own rules and customs, so you could try to ask questions from someone where you are going if you can. Otherwise, they are likely used to having new folks come in and learning by watching what others are doing.

I have only sat at one monastery outside of Treeleaf, and there you are not allowed to move during Zazen or leave Sesshin early, but chair sitting is fine. There is a Treeleaf Rohatsu retreat guide that is posted in the Jukai forum every year with a lot of good retreat tips.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[shikantazen]

Thank you both for your replies

Here are couple of links I found regarding pain during zazen that I want to share:

http://forestcityzen.org/what-can-we-learn-from-painful-zazen

https://wwzc.org/dharma-text/practice-pain-and-posture

Gassho,
Sam
satlah

[Risho]

removed post and put it where I thought i added it lol

weird - I meant to post in the other thread - sorry about that.

[Horin]

Hey Sam,
My opinion: take it easy - don't be too much concerned. Find a posture that's good for longer duration of sitting. If you have to swallow, just swallow. If you are too uncomfortable just gently change something. We are no stone made statues and also we don't have to compare ourselves with others.
Just dive in and be carried by the waves:-)
At least that's what I would do.

Gassho
Ben

Stlah

Enviado desde mi PLK-L01 mediante Tapatalk

[Jakuden]

Does that answer your questions ok Sam? I laughed about the swallowing one, because that really can be a pain in a Zendo with good acoustics! There are recommendations to keep your tongue on the roof of your mouth, etc. but during Zazen sometimes you just have to swallow. I found that if I do, it is contagious and the folks around me often do too. Coughing and sneezing often can't be helped, either. I have seen people gently asked to refrain from frequent sniffling, though.... it must be awful to sit with a bad cold as I think you must have to just let the nose run! And if everything else is fine, then come the super-loud stomach grumbles, or the heavy eyelids and trying not to nod off and jerk awake.

I have not had discomfort resting the mudra in my lap. That may just be for you to practice finding what's most comfortable for you during long sits. You can probably shift that during Zazen pretty easily without anyone noticing. Lots of people's mudras collapse as they sit especially when they are falling asleep, LOL

Moving, itching, shifting position etc. may not be okay. After a few days of Sesshin, more and more people start chair sitting, especially by the end of the day.

I hope you enjoy your retreat and tell us about it when you come back!

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Amelia]

Isn't it funny how silence is more silent when there's more people in the room?

Gassho
Sat today, lah

[Seiryu]

Two things I learned from a week long retreat I once did some time ago.
One: pain is painful.
When people are told to sit with the pain, or be the pain, or anything like that, it is often interpreted as: "If I do that, then the pain will disappear..."
no...pain is painful. Yet what does happen, is the okness that comes with that. Before it was, pain is painful...BAD

then it can morph into pain is painful....duh.... (although, if there is a substantial amount of pain, i wouldn't push it either....no point being a Buddha with broken knees.....

Quick story....
Around the fourth day of my retreat, my knees just couldn't take it anymore....and I was in a battle with my ego and pride. My ego wanted me to stick it out and show the other meember how awesome of a sitter I was. My body wanted me to keep it easy and give my knees a break.
Finally I listened to my body and before the start of the 4th day sitting I got a chair instead of a zafu.

Fast-forward to the end of the retreat where members were taking turn sharing a few words about how the retreat went for them...
an older gentleman turned to me and said: "I really want to thank you. I could tell you had such a strong sitting practice. But when I saw you get a chair, I felt so relaxed and felt so better about myself needing to use a chair"

Moral of that story....

You never know the effect you can have on your surrounding by being true to your body....

Don't push yourself too much...only you will know how much push is needed....

SAT
Seiryu

[Jishin]

Hi Sam,

I think that attachment to form in Zen can lead to suffering. I would just sit without worrying too much if it’s right or wrong as long as intent is good.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[shikantazen]

Thanks all for the replies. I went to a 2.5 day retreat this weekend. I quit after 1.5 days due to the pain when sitting.

I practiced meditation in other traditions where it was all about mind. You sit in a comfortable posture with back support and try focusing the mind on some object. Our Zazen is very physical and is not easy

In general I avoid pain and hard things in life. At work also I was given the feedback that I don't try to tackle difficult things and stay in comfort zone. I get feeling that sesshins (especially those longer than 2 days) may be very hard for me. This somehow needs a stoic approach. I have no problems maintaining a twice daily practice (I have done that like for 10 years or so with other traditions and zen included).

How important are sesshins for a zen student? Will it slow me down if I just stick to daily practice?

Gassho,
Sam
Sat2day

[Horin]

I assume, that sesshin can be of benefit. But as long we practice wholeheartedly, sit daily, everything is fine. There are people making a race out of sesshin. Make it some kind of archievements. I think that's not the right intention. Also I think, circumstances are different. If we are not able to participate on sesshin or long retreats, that's not inferior. We are not superior when we are every month on another sesshin. All of our life is the Zendo and we should bring all of our wholehearted practice into our daily life.
How can it slow you down not to participate on sesshin? There's nothing to attain, no where to arrive. We are already whole.
I'm looking forward for jundos and the priests answers.

Gassho
Ben

Stlah

Enviado desde mi PLK-L01 mediante Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Thanks all for the replies. I went to a 2.5 day retreat this weekend. I quit after 1.5 days due to the pain when sitting.
...

How important are sesshins for a zen student? Will it slow me down if I just stick to daily practice?

Gassho,
Sam
Sat2day

Hi Sam,

Did the teacher in charge offer you an alternative posture such as a chair when the pain became too intense? What happened then? I would be surprised if they did not.

As to the importance of sitting a multi-day retreat ...

I usually say that, assuming one is physically and psychologically able without a disability or health issue of body or mind to prevent it (and further assuming that life allows so given work, kids, economic hardship or the like), attending retreats and Sesshin of a few days or a week about once a year is highly recommended and really vital to this path. Now, someone might ask, "if each moment is all time and space, and there is nothing to attain, what is the purpose of an intensive Sesshin?" Well, I often say that, sometimes, we need to practice a bit long and hard, morning to night ... sitting and wrestling with 'me, my self and I' ... all to attain Nothing to Attain! Going to Retreats, Sesshin and such is a powerful facet of this Practice and not to be missed if at all possible. Sometimes we sit short, sometimes we sit long ... sometimes we sit in a formal retreat, sometimes we "stand" Zazen on a bus ... all to realize that this path is beyond all place or measure. All are important.

When I say "possible," I mean that there are people who will take off for a weekend golf trip or fishing, but not a retreat. Also, there are folks who are really in poor health, or suffering depression or the like, who should not try it unless their doctor or mental health professional thinks it a good idea (for folks with serious health conditions, anxiety or depression etc., that is their place of practice right now). However, for other folks, being a little uncomfortable, bored, tense at the challenge and the like is part of the practice. A little mental challenge is good, as is leaping a bit outside one's comfort zone. I know folks who will not attend a retreat pleading lack of funds, but will blow the same amount on burgers at the drive-thru and a new pair of jeans.

During or before heading to a long retreat, one can get nervous or resist mentally, and that is all part of the process of learning to manage and drop the fear and resistance away. Once, at a certain point during a week long Sesshin here in Japan, I was feeling edgy, bored, homesick, nervous. I realized that there is a kind of button inside us whereby we can switch off a lot of that, and replace it with "go with the flow", acceptance, joy, relaxation, energy and such. In fact, finding that "button" is one of the main reasons for going to a retreat in the first place! When I became extremely bored, and a little homesick, about day 3 or 4. I asked myself, "Why am I here, on such a lovely day, when I could be out doing something?" I hit that switch, and suddenly there was no other place to be and sitting was lovely. To experiment, I hit the switch again and again, back and forth ... and became bored and sad, then peaceful and content, then bored and miserable again. Back and forth. Finding that switch inside was a great discovery about how circumstances do not change yet the mind can often change circumstances.

So, in short, Sesshin are highly recommended and encouraged to those who can, at least once a year.

I highly recommend attendance at a retreat in a residential setting too. That is best. However for those who truly cannot because of work, kids and the like, we will have our 2-Day all online netcast Treeleaf Rohatsu Retreat next month. Here is the retreat from last year.

TREELEAF SANGHA online 2-DAY ANGO-JUKAI-ROHATSU RETREAT -- 2018 -- MAIN PAGE

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?16581-TREELEAF-SANGHA-online-2-DAY-ANGO-JUKAI-ROHATSU-RETREAT-2018-MAIN-PAGE

Gassho, J

STLah

[shikantazen]

I asked myself, "Why am I here, on such a lovely day, when I could be out doing something?" I hit that switch, and suddenly there was no other place to be and sitting was lovely. ....
...Finding that switch inside was a great discovery about how circumstances do not change yet the mind can often change circumstances.

Thanks for your reply. I am specifically curious about this part in bold "there was no other place to be". Dumb question but can't I quit the retreat and spend rest of the day at a beach instead? Isn't that being able to change circumstances?

Thanks for confirming the importance of retreats. I also noticed that I typically sit 30 min and at retreat they have each sitting for 40 min. So I might be better prepared with below changes

- Sit at home for 40 min twice daily or even 45 min
- Practice on weekends whenever possible to do a mini retreat at home by myself (Do you recommend this? Should I follow a typical retreat schedule with sutras and ceremonies?)

I have also found the below two additional links on dealing with pain:
Video by Muho: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk7JRHNX19A
Article by a zen priest: https://www.elephantjournal.com/2013...n-kogen-keith/

Gassho,
Sam
Sat

[Jakuden]

Thanks for your reply. I am specifically curious about this part in bold "there was no other place to be". Dumb question but can't I quit the retreat and spend rest of the day at a beach instead? Isn't that being able to change circumstances?

Well, we could also just skip the retreat entirely and go to the beach instead! Maybe it’s important to “find your why,” as the current catchphrase goes. Sesshin is not meant to be a pleasant distraction from life, just the opposite actually.

If we leave Retreat, it will not help us learn how to “flip the switch” when life hands us a challenge we truly cannot change. When our spouse divorces us, when our house burns down, when a loved one is ill and dying, going to the beach or finding other pleasant distractions is not likely to be sufficient to cut through the suffering.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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