Not-Self & Death Anxiety

[Kyōsen]

I've had the (mis)fortune of having some experiences where I directly experienced emptiness of self which shook me from the dream of really being here. These experiences have faded in my memory over time, but their effects have lingered. Some were fascinating, some were distressing and had me seriously thinking I had developed a neurological disorder or serious mental illness. It's one thing to understand the idea of not-self or the emptiness of self, but it's quite another to really experience it first-hand.

While the feeling of self still arises and I still fall into the warmth of its familiarity, a part of me knows it's just another feeling like any other. This has left me to experience intrusive thoughts about death - my death and the death of those I love. While I think it's fine to reflect on the inevitability of our own end (as a way to motivate ourselves to practice and to prioritize our lives and do away with things that don't really matter to us), this "death anxiety" was something else. It caused me serious distress and would interrupt my thinking at any time of day (though it most frequently came up just as I was falling asleep each night).

At first I didn't see a connection between these experiences of not-self and the death anxiety, but the more I sat with both, the clearer it became. Having shaken loose my firm grip on my sense of self, a kind of "gap" opened in my psychological model and as nature abhors a vacuum, my mind abhorred that gap. The gap was where my reliance on a sense of self used to be. It was a very comforting feeling, to be so sure there really was a thing I could point to and call my "self". The idea of the emptiness of self made me uncomfortable before these not-self experiences, but that discomfort I felt was something I rationalized away as being more of a discomfort with the unfamiliar.

I didn't know how to be me without a strong reliance on a solid self, and I didn't realize how important that reliance was to my psychology. It seemed like a trivial thing, but the truth is that it was something I had been taking for granted my entire life - it had always been there, it was so familiar that it didn't seem like anything remarkable or even important. It's like they say "You don't know what you have until you lose it."

I had a feeling this "gap" wasn't something to be left to fester. In the same way that we don't simply uproot bad habits and leave nothing in their place but, rather, we replace them with good habits, I felt that the way forward was to replace that reliance on a strong sense of self with something else. I was immediately reminded of two things simultaneously:

1. Thich Nhat Hahn's once said: "Enlightenment is when a wave knows it's the ocean".
2. Dogen once wrote: "To study the Buddha Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of enlightenment remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly."

The supreme kindness and wisdom of these people rang in my mind like thunder and it became clear to me what the way forward should be: Replace the strong sense of self with a strong sense of inter-being with the universe.

This was another idea I was familiar with intellectually, having come across it many times over the years of studying and practicing, but this time I felt like it was a real call-to-action, to actively look for the way "I" am a manifestation of the universe rather than a being who is "in" the universe. My imagination conjured an image of a person whose body was full of stars like space on whose fingers they wore finger puppets, and one of those finger puppets was "me". I began to encourage myself to think thoughts like "It's not so much that "I" am the Universe but, rather, that the Universe is "me"." The ocean is the wave. The "myriad things" (universe) actualizes me.

I was also reminded of something I read in one of my favorite books Sit Down & Shut Up in which the author expresses an idea like "I think the Universe is more real than I am."

All these images and quotes and thoughts have been very helpful in getting me back to some sense of normalcy. The death anxiety is gone and I am very grateful for that because I really can't express just how distressing it was, I didn't even know there was a term for it until I did some Google and YouTube sleuthing.

So my reason for posting this is twofold:

1. I'm curious to know if any of you have gone through something similar.
2. Where do I go from here? I suspect that I should continue to sit and "stabilize" this, but could use some advice.

Gassho,
Sen
SatToday|LAH

[Rich]

Your ego is playing games with you. Put it all down and just sit. Let it go

Sat/lah


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[Risho]

Your ego is playing games with you. Put it all down and just sit. Let it go

Sat/lah


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Rich - if you keep giving away the secrets, I won't be able to charge for my services I kid, i kid

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Kokuu]

Hi Sen

Depersonalisation of this kind is known to occur as a result of meditation in some people and it does seem to be very distressing and psychologically disturbing.

I have had experiences of non-self but mostly my brain has immediately clutched for solidity once the rug of self has been pulled away. Otherwise, I have experienced being a wave that is part of the ocean which feels much less depersonalising as there is not the gap you speak of but rather Dogen's sense of "to be actualized by myriad things."

I would say that the depersonalisation comes about from a realisation of form is emptiness without a counter-balance of emptiness is form which can move us back into the relative world of the wave (but still recognising ourselves as part of the ocean). In Dogen's terms, you have stopped at "To study the self is to forget the self" and not moved on to the next part of the realisation.

It sounds like you have managed to put that part back by contemplating that the ocean is the wave and we are the manifestation of the ten thousand things and the form is emptiness, emptiness is form circle is completed.

If things are pretty much okay now, is there anything you need to do? Jundo will doubtless be able to offer some better advice but the only thing I would suggest is to maybe engage with some compassion practices such as the metta verses or tonglen. In Tibetan Buddhism this is the antidote to having pushed too far down the wisdom/emptiness path and it makes sense to work on our connection to other sentient beings in order to feel the interdependence of all things.

This is pretty much guesswork on my part though as I have not experienced what you have.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Rich]

Everyone makes a big deal about non self and emptiness when it’s just awareness without all the mind pollution. What everyone fears is the death of the ego which is not not your eternal essential nature

Sat/lah


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[Kyōsen]

Hi Sen

Depersonalisation of this kind is known to occur as a result of meditation in some people and it does seem to be very distressing and psychologically disturbing.

I have had experiences of non-self but mostly my brain has immediately clutched for solidity once the rug of self has been pulled away. Otherwise, I have experienced being a wave that is part of the ocean which feels much less depersonalising as there is not the gap you speak of but rather Dogen's sense of "to be actualized by myriad things."

I would say that the depersonalisation comes about from a realisation of form is emptiness without a counter-balance of emptiness is form which can move us back into the relative world of the wave (but still recognising ourselves as part of the ocean). In Dogen's terms, you have stopped at "To study the self is to forget the self" and not moved on to the next part of the realisation.

It sounds like you have managed to put that part back by contemplating that the ocean is the wave and we are the manifestation of the ten thousand things and the form is emptiness, emptiness is form circle is completed.

If things are pretty much okay now, is there anything you need to do? Jundo will doubtless be able to offer some better advice but the only thing I would suggest is to maybe engage with some compassion practices such as the metta verses or tonglen. In Tibetan Buddhism this is the antidote to having pushed too far down the wisdom/emptiness path and it makes sense to work on our connection to other sentient beings in order to feel the interdependence of all things.

This is pretty much guesswork on my part though as I have not experienced what you have.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Hi Kokuu,

Thank you for this advice and your insight, I appreciate this and I will begin focusing more on metta and doing Tonglen practice. Your analysis of what may going on sounds pretty spot-on from where I'm sitting. This feels like the right way forward and maybe I don't have to "stabilize" it.

Gassho,
Sen
SatToday|LAH

[Kokuu]

I would check in with Jundo for more authoritative words on your situation.

Rich sounds like he has experience of this and may be giving better advice than I am.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Jishin]

Your ego is playing games with you. Put it all down and just sit. Let it go

Sat/lah


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Eva]

I had a feeling this "gap" wasn't something to be left to fester. In the same way that we don't simply uproot bad habits and leave nothing in their place but, rather, we replace them with good habits, I felt that the way forward was to replace that reliance on a strong sense of self with something else.

Hello Sen,
thank you for sharing your experience .

I have n't experienced anything similar but there is something that caught my eye while reading it (Quote above) .
Why is that you immediately want to "do" something with "it", to "replace" "it" ?
Isn't that the same being busy-busy with all the nonsense just to not look into what really IS?

I'm not saying there is something else to do instead, just asking, maybe you could look into that why you need to fill ... what exactly?

PS bad habits can be seen through and discarded without bothering with "new" ones . eventually habits themselves are not helpful in the end (if you like, you can call them "bad" )

all the best,
Gassho eva
sattoday and also LAH

[Daitetsu]

Dear Sen,

There is nothing to fear: something which has never been born, cannot die. The unborn knows no death.

Some very good advice in this thread, I think Kokuu nailed it that you stopped with the concept of emptiness. To use a different image: you stopped after turning around 180°. You must do the entire 360° turn - you will be back at the beginning, but completely changed (sorry, it is hard for me to put this into words).
You must realise both sides of the medal. There is no "Sen", and yet, of course there is a "Sen". You are the entire ocean, and yet, you also are the wave. The whole ocean contains the drops, and yet, one drop contains the entire ocean.

You must realise these things in order to come back to where you started, yet changed, seeing through that cosmic joke life really is. A happy, tragic, beautiful, awkward heavenly firework.


Gassho,

Daitetsu


#sat2day

[Jundo]

In the Mahayana, and especially Master Dogen's way, the emptiness of "non-self" for all things becomes wholeness that, instantly, turns around and flows back into affirming all things (you and me too) as each a jewel which is shining as they are. Our way is not nihilism, and so called "emptiness" is simultaneously a rediscovery of the wholeness and interflowing of all phenomena of the universe. "Self" is reaffirmed as our universal self which is also the selfness of all separate things. All individual phenomena, including people and things, good and bad, then shine as individual pearls on Indra's Net.

As a corollary, one discovers ... not death ... but this which transcends and flows along with all human ideas of "life and death." That is true although, individually, we will certainly all kick the bucket someday. (I would not call this "the unborn," like Daitetsu, but I would not not call it "unborn" either).

So, literally there's "no thing" to fear and everything to celebrate.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kyōsen]

Why is that you immediately want to "do" something with "it", to "replace" "it" ?
Isn't that the same being busy-busy with all the nonsense just to not look into what really IS?

I'm not saying there is something else to do instead, just asking, maybe you could look into that why you need to fill ... what exactly?

PS bad habits can be seen through and discarded without bothering with "new" ones . eventually habits themselves are not helpful in the end (if you like, you can call them "bad" )

Hi Eva!

The reason why I immediately wanted to do something about it is because it was very distressing and was impacting my ability to function. I could barely keep it together while doing the most ordinary things and I understood that this inability to attend to even basic tasks like feeding myself wasn't good.

Dear Sen,

There is nothing to fear: something which has never been born, cannot die. The unborn knows no death.

Some very good advice in this thread, I think Kokuu nailed it that you stopped with the concept of emptiness. To use a different image: you stopped after turning around 180°. You must do the entire 360° turn - you will be back at the beginning, but completely changed (sorry, it is hard for me to put this into words).
You must realise both sides of the medal. There is no "Sen", and yet, of course there is a "Sen". You are the entire ocean, and yet, you also are the wave. The whole ocean contains the drops, and yet, one drop contains the entire ocean.

You must realise these things in order to come back to where you started, yet changed, seeing through that cosmic joke life really is. A happy, tragic, beautiful, awkward heavenly firework.

Oh! Oh now I see! I had really struggled with the idea of "the unborn knows no death" but I think I see it and I have a big smile on my face right now! I wish I could put into plain language what I think I'm seeing, maybe I'll try:

All things are in motion and have been since beginning-less time. Anything that's caused to exist is, itself, a cause for other things to exist. It's a big, messy soup that's always in motion, stirring and being stirred by its own stirring action. Because everything is already in motion, no new motions can come in from the "outside", which means nothing is really "born". Things just arise because ... of course they do ... everything is already in motion so there's no other possible outcome than for things to arise.

So no one is ever born, because nothing enters the universe from "outside" it; it's all already here. We appear, but we're not born and this also means, as the Heart Sutra says, there is no death and no ending of death (because there's nothing born that can die in the first place).

In the Mahayana, and especially Master Dogen's way, the emptiness of "non-self" for all things becomes wholeness that, instantly, turns around and flows back into affirming all things (you and me too) as each a jewel which is shining as they are. Our way is not nihilism, and so called "emptiness" is simultaneously a rediscovery of the wholeness and interflowing of all phenomena of the universe. "Self" is reaffirmed as our universal self which is also the selfness of all separate things. All individual phenomena, including people and things, good and bad, then shine as individual pearls on Indra's Net.

As a corollary, one discovers ... not death ... but this which transcends and flows along with all human ideas of "life and death." That is true although, individually, we will certainly all kick the bucket someday. (I would not call this "the unborn," like Daitetsu, but I would not not call it "unborn" either).

So, literally there's "no thing" to fear and everything to celebrate.

Thank you, Jundo! Your phrasing here made the difference for me, the "wholeness that turns around and flows back into affirming all things" is what I was missing and so now I see what others were saying when they wrote that I had stopped at "form is emptiness". I can see myself returning to what you've written here as I move forward, thank you again for your kind words. I feel pretty excited about going forward!

どうもありがとうございます！
合掌,
Sen
SatToday|LAH

[Risho]

I love this thread because like all good discussions here, and there have been a lot lately, they raise clarifying questions to force me to address how I feel about something. It gives us all an opportunity see how we see things and hopefully discover new things. I don't know if you've noticed this, but a lot of times I actually discover what I feel when I"m writing the answer. It's like this medium really works for me as a tool for practice; really cool stuff. Anyway, I digress. hahahah

I mean when it comes to life and death; I just don't know. I mean when it comes down to it, I have a kind of general idea of who I am, but as I go more into the specifics I don't know; I really don't know. Sometimes I believe I believe something for example, but it turns out I don't.

It's like in zazen too, when mind and body drops and you are just there; you don't know; there is no one there to know. You only know you may have been there for a bit when you come back to thinking about what just happened, but who knows?

But all these states of mind and consciousness; we aren't always in a spot. We're all over the place. So I look at life like I have to set my intent and then I know I'll flip flop around everywhere and go places I don't expect and sometimes hate sitting one day when the previous day I loved it. But if I set my goal or intent, then I will generally move in the right direction.

I don't know what happens when we die; no one does. I can read things about being a bubble and then just going back to the ocean, but "painted rice cakes don't satisfy hunger."

I"m not saying there isn't truth to that; I'm saying I need to taste that for myself. I think this life and death is something of paramount importance, and while we can help each other, and read pointers, we have to figure this out for ourselves. There is no "I got it", but you can get it. I think that it's a constant re-adjusting and fine tuning, just like zazen.

So you never get anything but you get it by always picking yourself up and moving on when you fail.

Life is unpredictable at times, and there are no fixed answers; we don't have a map, but we have to try to go the right direction. It doesn't take much to slip; you can get off the path very easily, but you always have a choice to bring yourself back. I mean that really.

I know I've deviated from death this thread, but it relates to what we are talking about here. I think about death sometimes. I don't want to die; I miss those who have died, and I'm going to miss people when I die. Maybe I won't; I won't be around to miss, but I can only experience myself as alive. In other words, I only can really fathom me experiencing death so it's kind of a funny thing.

But like in all good things - we aren't alone. Many people better than me have already died, and many people are dying now. I take solace in that knowing that this is just how it works, and I'm not alone. Also - who knows what it's like? Easy for me to say now, but there is a wonder to it all isnt there? What is death? What actually happens?

But I will experience that when it happens; I need to not take for granted this life I've been given now. So more importantly right now; what is this life? who am I? what is my life?

These are questions that drive practice.

I just don't know about death, but i can't worry about it. That's what I love about zazen; you just gotta do something. You drop the thoughts of likes and dislikes and just do something. And if you've set your intent hopefully what you do is helpful to yourself and others.

I think death is a tool (our thought of it) because yeah I don't want to die, but it forces me to re-focus on how I live.

And I see these top 10 lists of insights and so on. Truth and principles are not the property of one belief system or way of living. They are true. So a lot of insights we write about here may seem like common sense, in that they are common to humanity, and they are.

So treating people kindly is not necessarily zen, but it is zen. Also - to truly taste and understand how to live a good life is I think paramount; we are all going to die, but we need to live properly. And I feel that zen can help uncover that.

I know I'm rambling, but when you talk about death, there's a lot to unpack there. Just like when we talk about life.

Live fully now, die fully when it's time to die. And how do you live fully? Well that's something I ask myself every day.

Edit - ok one other thing

Gratitude. Not gratitude, but big "G" Gratitude - probably GRATITUDE is my favorite teaching of Jundo, and it's my secret word.

I don't deserve anything I have; I don't know why I have air conditioning, or awesome coffee. I love my job. I have friends and family. I have a zen practice again.

I was probably awesome in past lives and I deserve it, so there :P Seriously, I am amazed at everything I have; yet I complain.

Fear - fear is a poison. Fear is not a seed that you want to plant. It's planted in me, and i Have to work with it a lot. I have fears of failure, sometimes fear of dying, fear of the unknown. What happens if I lose my job? Fear

To hell with fear - we can watch it rise up and then we don't play the game. Fear wants to invite to sit at the table, but we don't have to be dealt in.

GRATITUDE is the medicine. I don't want to sound like some self-help guru, but this actually works. When you feel down or afraid - think of all that you have - just keep it small at first - just 1 thing. But you can make it a daily thing where you list out 5 things that you are grateful for, and it doesn't have to be all roses, and this is the depth of Jundo's teachings. Be thankful for the colds, or the MS (Anna :P ) or the Type 2 diabetes (Tai ).

I know, I know. I don't have MS or Type 2. I don't have chronic fatigue or anything. I know I don't know what I'm talking about, and I would never minimize your experiences. But try it - how can you be grateful for things that you wouldn't typically think are tools?

I mean I don't deserve to be alive; I am so thankful to be here. So from one perspective I have no plans on dying anytime soon, and I don't want to; that's very healthy I think. I mean sure "no-self" but if you want to die, then really that's not good.

But when death happens (funny - at first I wrote "if death happens" - I don't actually believe I'm going to die - talk about deluded. hahahah), I think it would make it a little better if I thought about how I didn't have to be here at all, sharing this time with everyone - with you all. And on top of that, I have the luxury of not starving to death or having to protect myself from some invading tribe that I get to take time to actually discover this life. Think about how amazing that is that we actually get to do that - this points to the podcast episode (Kirk/Jundo); things can "seem" bad, but really I don't think they are all that bad either.

Certainly some have it better - but a lot have it worse unfortunately. And you know - comparisons aren't helpful; to me, I like things; I have technology, I have a lot of gym shoes; I like clothing and weights. I like a lot of stuff. So someone may have more stuff than me and some may have less - but that isn't better. That's all crap. The introspective life is where it's at.. for me right now. I mean this is all my feeling - I don't really know what I'm talking about here, so I don't want you to think that I do.

But right now - I feel that facing the obstacles and being grateful for them - it cannot get better than that. It's like that old koan about the zen monk who's chased off a cliff by a tiger, and he's hanging on a vine for his life. If he lets go he's going to die. He can't climb up because the tiger is going to eat him. And here come some ##$#%hole rats that start chewing on the vine! Well he's done for.

But he sees a strawberry and takes a bite.

What would do? Really - think about it because that isn't a story about some zen monk to teach us a lesson. That is our story; that is us; that is the human condition.

So what are you going to do? Wallow in sorrow and feel sorry for yourself, or are you going to take a bit of the strawberry?

The universe has a trigger pointed at our heads; we just forget about it, and that's good; we shouldn't be obsessed with one facet over all others. But some day our time will come; but enjoy now. enjoy now! More than enjoy - use this time wisely; don't be used by your time here.

Gah language - all these things can be twisted. Enjoy now - become a hedonist. Nonsense. Doing whatever you want is not freedom; responsibility and discipline are true freedom. Because - if you take the hedonistic route - you are still controlled by externals. When you discipline yourself and live intentionally, nothing sways you - and that's freedom.

Be GRATEFUL

Ok now I'm done

Gassho,

Risho
-st

[Kyōsen]

Oh Risho, thank you

Thank you for pouring out your heart and going all stream-of-consciousness here. Of everything you wrote here, I find your call to be grateful to really stand out. This has become an important part of my practice in the last few years and is one of the tools I've been using to cope with anxiety and depression and transform them both into gratitude. Interesting that gratitude can transform other emotions into more gratitude!

I went out walking the other day and saw some snow had fallen. Part of my mind lamented, "It's too early for snow. I don't want it to be cold so soon. I don't like the cold and the dark." But then gratitude spontaneously arose and I thought "I get to see this snow and feel this chill. I'm still alive. This is a gift and a privilege. It is a privilege to watch the turning of the seasons. Many have died and can no longer see the seasons change, but I get to. I'm still here."

My childhood best friend passed away in her sleep three years ago and I sometimes think about how lucky I am to still be here, to get to experience all kinds of things she no longer can. I get to feel love, sadness, joy, disgust, and more. I get to see summer turn to autumn and autumn to winter and so on while she does not. Every moment is special and will never come again.

After reading your post, I think gratitude will become an even more prominent part of my practice. The death anxiety was derailing my life and so I'm extremely grateful for all the kindness and wisdom that others have offered to me, and now that there's space again in this noisy head of mine, I can spend more time cultivating gratitude for each and every moment that I still get to be here for.

Gassho,
Sen
SatToday|LAH

[Jishin]

Hi,

I am reading Zen of Zombies. The book makes excellent recommendations. Be like a zombie. Zombies don’t care about death and dying. They don’t have anxiety. They limp around in no particular hurry until they come across a human brain. Then they eat it if the human doesn’t escape or if they don’t get an ax to their head. Then it’s limping and groaning around some more. Eat brains, limp and groan. That’s it. Nothing extra.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__