Interesting experiences during Shikantaza

[Kevin Benbow]

During my lifelong on again, off again relation with Zen, my perspective has changed.

Since I have never had much guidance outside of reading the Three Pillars of Zen, for a long time I viewed enlightenment as something to pursue.

About two years ago I was reading Yasutani Roshi's commentary on Mu. When I stopped reading, everything looked the same, yet strangely complete. The lamp looked like it was perfect, though there was no change in it.

This perception faded with time.

I recently began sitting again and ended up here.

Thank you, Jundo, for your words on Shikantaza. I am now striving not to strive. Just sitting and doing nothing but sitting is hard work, even as I do nothing.

I have had some brief sensations of timelessness, nothingness, etc., but now recognize that these are not the goal. In fact, it seems they may be distractions from sitting.

If anybody has any words to get me moving (or sitting!) In the right direction, your comments would be helpful.

Gassho

Kevin

Sat today

[Doshin]

Kevin, I have little wisdom about Zen to share There are good teachers here. My experience started 50 years ago and I thought the buzz of enlightenment would embrace me, but I don’t recall anything close. Maybe out of disappointment or just the complexity of life I drifted in and out of sitting for decades. Twenty years ago I focused my efforts again (centering on Zen) hoping enlightenment would visit me. Maybe it has given me glimpses or maybe it hasn’t...nothing I can document. I do not recall timelessness or nothingness during Zazen. However I have felt “connected” when sitting on a mountain or desert ridge and looking to the horizon. For the past decade I have come to expect little, maybe nothing. I just sit and I feel content. Can not explain it,but that is just me. I have told a few in the past I do not feel different when I sit but I know I fewl different if I don’t sit.

Doshin
St

[Risho]

just sit

lovin sittin? just sit

hatin sittin? just sit

bored? just sit

just sit

seriously thats all there is to it

just sit

gassho

risho
-stlah

[Kevin Benbow]

Thanks, Risho.

I understand this.

I just listened to podcast #2 in "The Zen of Everything." Jundo encourages us to take our sitting out into the world.

What would that look like?

I think I might have just answered my own question. . . .

Gassho

Kevin

Sat today

[Onka]

Kevin my comrade.

I faffed around the edges of Buddhism for a bunch of years, maybe 25 or so but life eh...

Then last November after being incredibly unwell in the Lungs department I stumbled across a Brad Warner book on Amazon Kindle. I was bed bound and trying to beat back the Black Dog with anything I could read Online or watch on YouTube. This bloke was the same vintage as I was, had a hardcore punk background like I did except he played bass while I just owned one lol. The language he used was familiar, accessible and felt authentic. It felt like I was reading about Zen Buddhism with all the bullshit stripped away. Just sitting! What?! Just sitting. So I tried it and within days I started to feel like I was going to win the war on depression and I was going to fight like hell to get better. I sat. It hurt. I sat. I failed. I sat. It hurt more. I tried a variety of positions, aids and other tools (yes I'm still talking about Shikintaza!!) but I still sat and sat most days. Sometimes only for 5 minutes but the thing I noticed the most was how I felt on days when I didn't sit. No sit was shit haha.
Seriously though, at the beginning even when I couldn't be arsed I sat. I asked my partner to make sure I'd sat. She did and then I did.
Thanks to comrade Kokuu I found Treeleaf. In May I jumped on in to the deep end because I have a hunger for learning and had found a supportive Sangha and excellent teacher in Jundo who respects the original teachings of the Buddha in as much as he is a student of Dogen's teachings.
Jundo has very few 'rules' for Treeleaf but one is 'Sat before Chat'.
I respect my teacher so I accept his 'rules'. If I no sat then I no chat lol. Simples!
I'm still working on the gentle speech stuff but hey...

Keep going. You'll be great.

Gassho
Anna

stlah

Sent from my Lenovo TB-8304F1 using Tapatalk

[Kevin Benbow]

Thanks Anna!

I love it! "No sit was shit"!!

The whole idea of non-duality comes to mind.

I have MS. But I also have a medication that keeps it dormant.

If it stays under control, so much the better.

If it flares up, so much the worse.

But in reality, it is the same whether it flares up or stays managed. It only becomes a problem if I cling to one condition over the other.

Is this in the ball park of what we're talking about with Shikentaza? Kind of like sitting is a microcosm (or macrcosm?) Of life?

Gassho

Kevin

Sat today

[Onka]

Thanks Anna!

I love it! "No sit was shit"!!

The whole idea of non-duality comes to mind.

I have MS. But I also have a medication that keeps it dormant.

If it stays under control, so much the better.

If it flares up, so much the worse.

But in reality, it is the same whether it flares up or stays managed. It only becomes a problem if I cling to one condition over the other.

Is this in the ball park of what we're talking about with Shikentaza? Kind of like sitting is a microcosm (or macrcosm?) Of life?

Gassho

Kevin

Sat today

I'm not qualified to answer Zen questions but my partner also has MS so I'm acutely aware of how it affects those with it even when so-called dormant. It's a bloody awful disease and largely invisible which adds to frustrations. My partner doesn't practice Shikintaza, she's more into Yoga but how she 'sits' with her MS is increasingly practical after years of cycles of defiance/failure/defiance/failure which as you are probably aware adds to the massive amount of fatigue she feels just being awake.
In saying that she identifies times where she's able to do various tasks during the day and we have an agreement where if she does something one day she rests the next.
Back to the management of tasks be they sitting Shikantaza or doing the dishes. My partner is an incredibly intelligent woman with multiple university degrees but after about 10am her memory starts to go, her critical thinking goes to mush and she even says words in the wrong order or can't read something she'd normally automatically breeze through. We joke that her morning brain is for watching things that need thinking about, managing day to day tasks and for important relationship discussions while her afternoon brain is left for The Bold and the Beautiful haha. The afternoon is also the time I need to discreetly follow up on what she's done as she often leaves water on, gates open, forgets to feed critters etc.
I'd naively suggest that you find your 'good brain' time of the day or every second day and have a crack at sitting then. Don't punish yourself. Your immune system's already doing a good self sabotage job. Be kind to yourself and do what you can how you can when you can. But do it. You'll smash it.

Deepest bows to you comrade
Gassho
Anna


Sat/LAh

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[Horin]

Hey Kevin,
Yes I can relate, when I started sitting I had some great expectations towards attaining enlightenment. Moments of bliss, experiences of nonduality, no mind just made the longing, the search for enlightenment much stronger.
Many people seem to think that satori is the most important thing, otherwise practice is useless, at least that's what I have heard and read several times. That can be very confusing.
But with jundo we have a great teacher that made me clear what it's about; be with what is... Sitting is about accepting life how it manifests. We don't have to run after ideals, we don't need to get somewhere but we are already whole. Its only our ideas that there's something lacking, something need to be added.. All aspects of life, all aspects of practice are part of our journey (that never ends, or that arrives moment by moment), so are the moments of tiredness, anxiety, boredom, thoughts, pain, but also the moments of clarity, nonduality, bliss, joy, ecstasy... We embrace all of them without being attached or aversive to them.

Gassho
Ben



Stlah

Gesendet von meinem PLK-L01 mit Tapatalk

[Kevin Benbow]

Thanks so much.

It's already there. Just hard to perceive. Though there is nothing really to perceive.

Gassho

Sat today

[Kokuu]

I have MS. But I also have a medication that keeps it dormant.

If it stays under control, so much the better.

If it flares up, so much the worse.

But in reality, it is the same whether it flares up or stays managed. It only becomes a problem if I cling to one condition over the other.

Is this in the ball park of what we're talking about with Shikentaza? Kind of like sitting is a microcosm (or macrcosm?) Of life?

Hi Kevin

I can empathise as I have a long-term health condition which is sometimes manageable and sometimes not.

You are right in thinking that we sit with whatever is occurring, just as it is. Off the cushion it is completely fine to do everything we can to improve our health as much as we can (well, unless it becomes obsessive or counter-productive) but on the cushion we drop all ideas of being sick or well, enlightened or unenlightened etc and just sit.

Sitting is complete and whole in and off itself, with nothing left out. There is nowhere else to be and your sitting is just as it is regardless of how it was last time or how you might like it to be. We are, for however many minutes we are on the cushion, sitting Buddha.

Dogen's Fukanzazengi is the best guide to sitting practice for me and I read it regularly. Elsewhere in Shobogenzo Bendowa, he says:

Even one person sitting for one moment in Zazen becomes whole with all things in the Universe through the whole of time. In this way, Zazen – the work of buddhas – extends through the past, present, and future. Everyone who practices Zazen experiences the same. The practice resonates within us, like a bell. It resounds within us up to our next practice, and extends on again afterwards. How could the practice be limited to this place? All concrete things in the world are in their normal state in this practice of the original state, but it is beyond our capacity to understand this intellectually.

(translation by Michael Eido Luetchford)

Three Pillars of Zen is an interesting book but with a quite different approach to Zen than our Soto tradition. That is not to say that either is worse or better but Philip Kapleau emphasises the Rinzai stance of pushing through to enlightenment rather than recognising what is already there.

As you say, everything is already there. I wouldn't say it is hard to perceive though and it is not 'not there', just not there in the solid way we usually imagine.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Risho]

Some really good responses, but I wanted to clarify my response because it was pedantic and not helpful.

The real secret here is: Just Sit! hahahahah

Ok I'm a smartass.

The truth of all of this is that you need to realize all of this yourself.

They say teaching zen is like selling water by the river.

Although we all come to this practice seeking something, we come to find out that what we seek is something we already have and no one can give us anything.

Without the seeking there is no practice; just like if you try to squash your thoughts, that's not zazen. So you have to seek to realize that for which you sought is already in you, which is why you'll hear zazen described as taking the backward step -> you are learning to discover you, your real you beyond all the layers and stories, etc. And you know - this may all be wrong, but it's where I'm at right now. lol

I know Jundo and the priests (should be the name of a band lol) can answer this better, but from my perspective, that's why Shikantaza is wholly complete.

That's also why zen is not self help. It is absolutely not here to make us better and more productive; however we'll likely see things we wouldn't expect. But if we come in with some pedestrian goals we limit it, and we miss all the magic.

And that's also why the best way to practice is to practice for the sake practice. I mean you have a goal of getting on the cushion, but when you sit get rid of any goals and just sit.

Don't try to think, don't try not to think.

It's very tricky but also very simple, like all good things in life.

It's like working out; how can someone make you workout if you don't feel like it? No one can make anyone do anything; you have to just do things sometimes, even if you don't want to. That's why I don't trust myself, and I remember why I started when I feel like being lazy. Those are just lies I tell myself to sabotage things.


Anyway just some rambling from someone who also sometimes just doesn't want to sit lol

Gassho,

Risho
-stlah

[Kevin Benbow]

Thanks Kokuu. There, yet not there.

Perhaps the difficulty perceiving it is mine.

Kevin

Gassho

Sat today

[Kevin Benbow]

Some really good responses, but I wanted to clarify my response because it was pedantic and not helpful.

The real secret here is: Just Sit! hahahahah

Ok I'm a smartass.

The truth of all of this is that you need to realize all of this yourself.

They say teaching zen is like selling water by the river.

Although we all come to this practice seeking something, we come to find out that what we seek is something we already have and no one can give us anything.

Without the seeking there is no practice; just like if you try to squash your thoughts, that's not zazen. So you have to seek to realize that for which you sought is already in you, which is why you'll hear zazen described as taking the backward step -> you are learning to discover you, your real you beyond all the layers and stories, etc. And you know - this may all be wrong, but it's where I'm at right now. lol

I know Jundo and the priests (should be the name of a band lol) can answer this better, but from my perspective, that's why Shikantaza is wholly complete.

That's also why zen is not self help. It is absolutely not here to make us better and more productive; however we'll likely see things we wouldn't expect. But if we come in with some pedestrian goals we limit it, and we miss all the magic.

And that's also why the best way to practice is to practice for the sake practice. I mean you have a goal of getting on the cushion, but when you sit get rid of any goals and just sit.

Don't try to think, don't try not to think.

It's very tricky but also very simple, like all good things in life.

It's like working out; how can someone make you workout if you don't feel like it? No one can make anyone do anything; you have to just do things sometimes, even if you don't want to. That's why I don't trust myself, and I remember why I started when I feel like being lazy. Those are just lies I tell myself to sabotage things.


Anyway just some rambling from someone who also sometimes just doesn't want to sit lol

Gassho,

Risho
-stlah

Thanks, Risho.

Your post reminds me of a metaphor I heard.

Kind of like a Hurricane: the thoughts all encircle the eye, which is it's defining feature, but is at the same time nothing.

The thoughts and beliefs may change, but the eye stays the same, even when the storm disappears.

Not sure if that is an accurate metaphor or not.

Gassho

Kevin

Sat today

[Seishin]

I came to Zen via martials arts, when we meditated shikantaza like after sparring to ensure students left the dojo in a calm state and not hyped up ready to strike. I first read Suzuki's Zen Mind Beginners Mind, A Western Approach To Zen by Christmas Humphrey and then Three Pilars of Zen. As you say it seemed to whole point of sitting was to chase kensho or enlightenment itself. I sat off and on for a good few years to deal with the stresses of work but nothing happened. Nada consequently I gave up.

Roll forward to a few years after I took early retirement and due events leading up to leaving work, was in a dark unhappy place I returned to those books. Started sitting and then because of my location (Brit in France ergo language challenges) started looking for a Sangha and found Treeleaf. Went through all the Beginner lessons and discovered there was no need to chase but sit for the sake of sitting. Just sit. I joined the sangha in Sept 2016 and have sat everyday since. I still have days when I question is it good or bad zazen but just let those thoughts pass or at least try.

These days I have no expectation and just plump up the zafu and sit. Would not have it any other way. Simples.

Sat but I guess I gave that away ;-)

[Kokuu]

Thanks Kokuu. There, yet not there.

Perhaps the difficulty perceiving it is mine.

I am not sure what you are trying to perceive, Kevin. You are just sitting with your ordinary perceptions - what you hear, see, taste, smell, touch and think (you doubtless know that Buddhism has six senses of which mental consciousness is the sixth rather than anything mystical or "I see dead people" ).

There is nothing to perceive aside from that.

Zen is, in the end, nothing special but becoming intimate with the world through sitting allows us to experience it more fully.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-