Being a Buddhist

[Jinho]

Re: Being a Buddhist

The map is not the territory.
A map is useful when it is understood for what it is.

I started to write a lot more, but really this is unnecessary, just really consider maps and how they are made

Thank you Keishin for such an elegant post.

gassho,
rowan
who thanks you again for your lovely PM

[Jinho]

Re: Being a Buddhist

If being a Buddhist means believing and reading what every Sutra says , instead of finding out for one's self through Zazen, and life, then you can count me out. I am not a Buddhist in that sense.

The Four Noble Truths, and Zazen seem to be enough for me (at the moment). Along with the Sangha, and life.

Gassho

Hi Will,

All the Chan/Zen buddhist lit (medieval) I have read says "there is no teaching that can be taught" and that teaching words are only little sticks to prod us to find out for ourselves. But I haven't read any pre-Chan (Indian, early buddhist lit). From the little I have heard, I think maybe early buddhism is a very different buddhism to chan/son/zen buddhism. So I am very confused with this talk of conformity to some ideology

For me, the four vows are the most central thing (aside from the experience of sitting).

A while back I came up with what i call the "4 Hard Truths". Hard as in hard science. All phenomena are connected, all phenomena are impermanent, there is only this place, there is only this moment. And the 5th is lemonade (which is the only thing to do).

thank you for your time,
as always thank you for your wonderful posts,
gassho,
rowan
still fox, still seeking ox

[Jinho]

Re: Being a Buddhist

but presently with my practice, I can really only handle Zazen, Precepts, 4 Noble Truths/8-fold Path.

Thanks,
Keith

Hi Keith,

First a general note, thank you for the many insightful things you have written on the forum that I have read recently.

But more specific to the above, I get tired just thinking of doing more than what you have listed above !

I am reminded of zen story where a zen teacher is asked by someone "what is the essence of zen buddhism" and the teacher says, "do no harm, do good, do good for others". And the questioner says "that's simple! A child of six could understand that!" And the zen teacher says "yes, but a person of eighty couldn't DO that". So I suppose for me it's all in the doing (trying not to beat myself up when I fail).

thank you for your time,
rowan

[Jinho]

Re: Being a Buddhist

Well, Hans, I'd struggle with "all emotions are painful". All emotions are transient, devoid of self, not to be clung to, not to be hankered after, are just what they are, I could accept all of that. But I just don't understand "all emotions are painful". Joy, be definition, is not painful. Chasing joy, hankering after it, may be suffering, but joy is just joy. Happiness is just happiness. Pain is just pain, too.

There again, perhaps I'm not a Buddhist, and if that's so then that wouldn't trouble me greatly. I don't suppose the Buddha was a Buddhist either.

Gassho

Martin

Hi Martin,

(OK, so each time I read a post from you I think of the National - and Simon Russell Russell Beale is opening next month in a Pinter!!!!!!!!!!)

I'm ok now, really. I definitely agree with what you say, and have decided that I think that a far more useful translation of "dukka" is "delusion" (rather than the usual one of "suffering").

Sorry for the horrendous grammar,
gassho ,
rowan

[will]

Re: Being a Buddhist

Hi everyone. I should probably say that I am not agianst reading and study (although my post came across that way). Let's leave discriminatory mind out of it for a sec. I am just at a point in my practice where sitting Zazen seems to be enough at the moment. I don't discourage anyone from reading and study.

In fact Shui di summed it up well:

seeing that word is bad, and no word is good, is just another kind of discrimination thinking)

The thing that made me post this originally was a discussion I had. The person seemed a bit like:

"Well, this Sutra says this, so if this sutra say this, then it must be true. " Is the feeling I got.

So I had a little self righteous tantrum and wrote this post. My "Is that so?" moment was wasted.

Indeed, I do read, and indeed discrimination can be left out of a large majority of discussion and study.

Perhaps one moment I may pick up a Sutra of sorts like I have done in the past. However, I'm not sweating it. I prefer the cushion, and the day to day at the moment, casually reading what I come across related to Zen practice.

Gassho and thank you for the replies

Will

[Dainin]

Re: Being a Buddhist

I am reminded of zen story where a zen teacher is asked by someone "what is the essence of zen buddhism" and the teacher says, "do no harm, do good, do good for others". And the questioner says "that's simple! A child of six could understand that!" And the zen teacher says "yes, but a person of eighty couldn't DO that". So I suppose for me it's all in the doing (trying not to beat myself up when I fail).

Hi Rowan,

Thank you for the nice words. Yes, I love that story as well. Yesterday I had a discussion with my 6th graders about "The Golden Rule," and they said how easy it is to understand but so hard to actually put into practice.

Thank you,
Keith

[disastermouse]

Re: Being a Buddhist

I am reminded of zen story where a zen teacher is asked by someone "what is the essence of zen buddhism" and the teacher says, "do no harm, do good, do good for others". And the questioner says "that's simple! A child of six could understand that!" And the zen teacher says "yes, but a person of eighty couldn't DO that". So I suppose for me it's all in the doing (trying not to beat myself up when I fail).

Hi Rowan,

Thank you for the nice words. Yes, I love that story as well. Yesterday I had a discussion with my 6th graders about "The Golden Rule," and they said how easy it is to understand but so hard to actually put into practice.

Thank you,
Keith

Steve Hagen did a talk about the inverse of the Golden Rule (as it's not prescriptive - like so many Buddhist teachings, it is 'negative'.)

[Jinho]

Re: Being a Buddhist

Hi Rowan,

Entirely up to you of course, but don't you think that it is practical to differentiate between delusion and the percieved effect of delusion?

Regards to you,

Harry.

Hi Harry,

I am not understanding your (above) above sentence. maybe some elucidation or example could help me?

thanks,
rowan

[Alberto]

Re: Being a Buddhist

A while back I came up with what i call the "4 Hard Truths". Hard as in hard science. All phenomena are connected, all phenomena are impermanent, there is only this place, there is only this moment. And the 5th is lemonade (which is the only thing to do).

This is awesome. I don't give a turd if I or anybody else thinks I am buddhist or not, and who cares if Dude and Buddy are real buddhists or just call themselves that. I just want to drink some of that lemonade (it already contains the 4 hard truths)

[disastermouse]

Re: Being a Buddhist

Well... when we don't act on a deluded thought (such as "I want to kill that £%$*er!") then it is not 'suffering', its not harmful when its just left as it is... so its not dukka in that case. It doesn't cause suffering and it isn't suffering, anxiety, stress etc etc.

In fact delusion is nothing other than enlightenment in practice where we can see 'it' just come and go without acting on it. We realise it. It realises us: 'Buddhas greatly realise delusion' as Dogen said and all that.

The suffering comes when we act on delusion and so I think this is a good case for having separate terms for 'delusion' and 'suffering'. Delsuion and 'dukka', or whatever.

Regards,

Harry.

Delusion causes suffering whether we act on it or not. In fact, on cannot have a deluded thought and not act on it as long as one thinks it's really true. You may not perform a killing action, but your dislike will have karmic consequences causing suffering. Furthermore, one's dislike is also caused by delusion.

[Jinho]

Re: Being a Buddhist

Hi Harry,

Thanks for your reply, I think I am a bit clearer on what you were saying.

gassho,
rowan

[disastermouse]

Re: Being a Buddhist

DM,

A karmic inclination is caused by a previous act of will on our part; where we have initiated or reinforced an inclination through an act of body, speech or mind in response to a (usually unrealistic) appraisal of an event in our life.

Just allowing a thought/feeling such as "I want to get one up on that guy" to pass by interrupts the process which would have us make real on that karmic inclination and so we are not as likely to do it again in future.

Unless one unconsciously propagates the thought, causing more frequent, similar thoughts. Repressing action based on thoughts we fully believe are real, in my experience, multiplies the thought. It may disappear for a bit, but it comes back, sometimes with more power.

Thoughts are not real, but yes, we can manipulate our thoughts alone in ways that initiate harmful results (brooding on some percieved personal slight for example), but this takes conscious effort, it takes an act of conscious will.

Are you familiar with the conditions of your thought? You think you can control your thoughts? You may as well think you can control the weather. Acting on thoughts you fully think are true does not require that much consciousness - I would argue that all it requires is being UN-conscious. That is, it takes far more effort to suspend brooding (if you are predisposed to brooding) than it does to continue to brood.

Interupting our habitual 'follow-through' by not committing to our thoughts/feelings of harming is greatly promoted by practicing zazen where we come to see all such mental stuff just coming and going. Zazen creates a little 'space' where we realize that we are free to act in the moment regardless of our unreal thoughts/feelings; 'the pivot of the moment' as Dogen called it (or something like that).

This would seem to me to be either a temporary, or a very willful and energetically exhaustive approach. Unless one can notice that the thought is essentially untrue, it will continue to assert itself in your mind. In fact, the more you 'fight' it, the harder it will assert itself, in my experience.

Our sub-conscious, and coscious, inclinations are 'freed-up' in Zazen I believe. I think it is a very positive thing to do, especially when we are feeling down and mightn't feel inclined to do it.

Regards,

Harry.

Zazen by itself seems to take the energy out of emotions and persistent thoughts - but unless one dismantles the assumptions upon which the thought or emotion is based, it will continue to return.

I guess I agree with you that the approach you outlined will work for small thoughts and emotions - at the cost of a great deal of energy. And I'm not even arguing that creating such a space is not vitally necessary - I guess I'm just saying that merely creating a space is insufficient to truly strike such thoughts or feelings at the root. In my experience, only realization strikes at the heart of the 'truth' of the thought or feeling and allows you to more permanently dis-indentify with it.

I say this not to be argumentative. Because of my BPD, I'm subject to powerfully delusive thoughts about the reality of my situation and simply disengaging from them is impractical - I need to see or be shown that they ARE NOT TRUE - otherwise I get swept away and I act on what I firmly believe is accurate information.

[will]

Re: Being a Buddhist

I say this not to be argumentative. Because of my BPD, I'm subject to powerfully delusive thoughts about the reality of my situation and simply disengaging from them is impractical - I need to see or be shown that they ARE NOT TRUE - otherwise I get swept away and I act on what I firmly believe is accurate information.
disastermouse

Yes. I was the same way. Although, I didn't have a name for it.

The more that we learn to open up and pay attention to something else other than our thoughts, the more we see that they are just thoughts and we have the choice to act on them or just let them come and go. Decerning our egocentric abusive thoughts from more productive ones. That is why it is called practice.

Now. I had tried everything one possibly could to deal with these thoughts. I tried all kinds of techniques. My head would feel like a vice was squeezing my temples day in and day out. But the only thing I really needed to do was find a quiet place, and pay attention to what I was hearing, and seeing, feeling, and keep doing that day after day. Eventually (when exactly it happened I don't know), the thoughts just come and go and I am more awake to what is really going on around me.

All I can say Chet is just keep practicing and you'll understand what Harry means.

Anyway, I'm glad you are working with your experience. The Sangha really helps.

Later Gator
Gassho Will

[disastermouse]

Re: Being a Buddhist

Hi Chet,

'Conscious' and 'sub-conscious' are relative to our perceptions. While sitting Zazen we become aware of thoughts which, in the normal course of the day ('non Zazen time') we wouldn't be aware of. To an extent (to what extent I don't know) Zazen makes the sub-conscious conscious... it broadens and deepens the perception whose usual function implies 'conscious' and 'sub-conscious'.

Repressing is not the way to go, or maybe it is in the case of an action causing more harm if you don't repress it.

I don't think its a question of 'suspending' or repressing brooding (to continue our example), merely to realise the nature of the thoughts allowing them to unfold as they will without attachment or resistance. We do this by not committing intent with an action of mind. This is not a neurotic 'waiting for things to go wrong' but is just a natural effect of our sitting Zazen as it starts to pervade our life. It relies on Zazen. Of course, certain things slip through the 'net'...often.... nobody's perfect! ops:

Yes, I am fairly familiar with the conditions of my thought. Unfortunately, re your suggestion, I can't be un-conscious for longer than the average person because I have a family and I have to live and operate in the real world. I don't believe that, while we are alive, we are ever really unconscious... it may just seem like that.

Yes, Dogen's 'not committing' to thoughts or whatever requires us to practice realizing our thoughts as 'not true', 'not objectively real'. That requires the practice of zazen and I think it would be very hard to do outside of having established the practice a bit.

"In fact, the more you 'fight' it, the harder it will assert itself, in my experience."

This is why I think it essential that we 'just sit' with an attitude of non-gaining, no end in sight, nothing to do, no mental goal, no fight to win, just the physical point of continuously maintaining the posture. I believe this will inform our attitude to our thoughts in a very positive way as the practice begins to pervade our life.

Regards,

Harry.

I waded through that and all I got was that you don't believe that you're ever unconscious because you 'can't afford it' and a re-emphasis that just sitting zazen will cause harmful thoughts to decrease over time.

To say that my own experience is vastly different would be quite an understatement. I had quite a long sustained practice of shikantaza and it did not cause harmful thoughts to decrease over time....not that this was the goal of sitting in the first place. Yes, it did sap the power of some destructive thoughts, and it did cause a substantial shift in my relationship to them - but often more important was the shift caused by realization that directly stemmed from sitting, although once again, such realizations were not sought out.

You have to face your life after you get off the cushion, and if you think that unconsciousness never creeps back in, well - I believe you may be deceiving yourself.

Chet

[Charles]

Re: Being a Buddhist

Unless one unconsciously propagates the thought, causing more frequent, similar thoughts. Repressing action based on thoughts we fully believe are real, in my experience, multiplies the thought. It may disappear for a bit, but it comes back, sometimes with more power.

Ain't that the truth! As Harry said in one of the posts in this thread, repression may be the thing to do when it's necessary to stop something immediately harmful, but yeah, it really comes back to bite in the long run.

Unless one can notice that the thought is essentially untrue, it will continue to assert itself in your mind. In fact, the more you 'fight' it, the harder it will assert itself, in my experience.

...

Zazen by itself seems to take the energy out of emotions and persistent thoughts - but unless one dismantles the assumptions upon which the thought or emotion is based, it will continue to return.

I guess I agree with you that the approach you outlined will work for small thoughts and emotions - at the cost of a great deal of energy. And I'm not even arguing that creating such a space is not vitally necessary - I guess I'm just saying that merely creating a space is insufficient to truly strike such thoughts or feelings at the root. In my experience, only realization strikes at the heart of the 'truth' of the thought or feeling and allows you to more permanently dis-indentify with it.

I don't know that this will be helpful for your situation, I'm just throwing it out there because what you wrote brought it to mind. It's been said in several discussions on these forums that zazen, and the precepts, and (some say) the study of Buddhist philosophy are needed for a full, balanced practice. Maybe that's because they complement each other in ways that help to deal with the issues that you raise. Maybe zazen and the precepts give us the space, and the practical experience, to really see and hear what we study, when we read things that suggest the delusive nature of many thoughts. That is, these practices come together to produce the realization you're talking about. I'm not married to the idea, but it seems interesting to me.

--Charles