No Self...I Need Help WIth An Explaination, Please.

[Rob H]

Hi everyone.
I know this is one of the basic tenets but it's one that I seem to have the most trouble understanding. I've watched the Buddha Basics video but I still don't quite get it (Sorry, Jundo).
This is how I see it right now, just so you know where I'm at:

Everything is interconnected - Me, you, a rock, the moon, a spider everything. If I could go back far enough in time to where 'all' began, this is where the interconnection comes from. Point Zero for lack of a better couple of words.

I may be 'separate' in my looks, my speech etc and stand out so to speak but just as a wave stands out from the surface of an ocean, it is still just the ocean.

It is only my senses followed by my perceptions of those senses that lead me to form a thought and from that thought, I decide what is good, bad or neutral which again strengthens the false belief that I am apart from all other things. ( I feel a sensation when I touch a hot stove. I perceive that as pain. That pain makes me think "Ow!" and I take my hand away. That is unpleasant. The stove burned me.) It is essentially my thoughts that make me think I am separate from everything else.

Am I on the right track or am I missing the point entirely? I understand that I am me, as Jundo said, try not paying your taxes and you'll find out that you are very much you but it's my perceptions and thoughts of everything around me that gives me the illusion of separation from absolutely everything else.

I hope I made some sense and some others here can understand what I am trying to say.

Gassho.
Rob.

ST

[Hoseki]

Hi Rob,

So here is what I think. Someone else might come along and give a better explanation. If that's the case I will be better off for reading it

I think there are a few different ways to look at no self or Anatta.

1. It means we don't have a enduring immutable self. So no indivisible eternal soul to speak of.
2. We are historically contingent beings. Conditions came together and we came from that and when the conditions that support us are no longer there we will be undone. Basically our parents had sex and all the necessary stuff needed to keep us alive from conception to now was in place. But eventually I'm going to die whether its from cancer that interferes with the functioning of my body or I get so old my organs fail or I get eaten by a tiger. But something will stop this ongoing process is that is the life of Hoseki.
3. We are interrelated with everything else. I'm not really able to elaborate on this point. I just read a book about it and I'm still rather fuzzy about it.

I would say that we both are and are not a self depending on the perspective. Clearly your a person with your own thoughts and feelings and so am I. But at the same time we are part of the world as it is. Like different notes in a melody.

At least that's rather fuzzy take on it.

Gassho
sattoday
Hoseki

[Junkyo]

Hi Rob! (I am also a Rob!)

I think Hoseki gives a pretty good break down, and you are definitely on the right track. My understanding of Anatta is that there is no "Fixed", "Permanent" self. There is no specific "Thing" that we can point at and say "Hey! That is me". Our perceived self is a big old jumble of causes and conditions that happened to form up to make a person. The Buddha taught that all things are this way.

For me personally having a basic understanding of Vasubandhu's 2 Truths doctrine. There is relative truth (I am Rob), this is useful in everyday life (such as needing to pay taxes and not stepping in front of a bus!) and there is "Ultimate" Truth, that all things exist in interdependent relationships with other "Things" causes and conditions, and because of this all things are impermanent and without fixed self.

It took me a while to wrap my head around it. In fact, I had more success at digesting it by spending time in Zazen and just sitting than I ever did by trying to understand it from an academic position.

I think that the deepest understanding of Emptiness/no-self/not-self etc, came through experiencing by way of practice, not by cognition nor by academic research.

I suppose this is a very complicated way of saying "Sit with it!" Haha.

Gassho,

Junkyo
SAT

[Ishin]

I think it was Suzuki who was asked how much self should we hold on to and his response was "Enough so as to not get hit by a bus".

I have also heard a lecture by Thich Naht Hahn in which he described the self as like a drop of water sprayed up from the ocean. For a brief time it exists separate from the ocean, but eventually it falls back. It is still a drop of water, but where does the drop and the ocean end and begin.

As for my own practice I think there is a rational, logical explanation of this, and there is a realization of this that goes beyond words. When I get in an argument with a family member that realization seems to have disappeared, at least temporarily though . Our habit is to think of ourselves as separate independent beings and this is only ONE way of looking at things. Even logically, if we break this down we can begin to see that this is in essence a bit skewed. It is not a one versus the other though it's a self/nonself.

Gassho

Sat Today, Lah

[Tai Do]

I like to think of non self both as a a practical concept for the purpose of the practice (sit and forget yourself dropping body and mind) and a philosophical truth in itself.

For the latter, I think it is linked to the idea of the five aggregates (form, sensations, perceptions, formations and consciousness). There is no aggregate that I can hold and say: “well, this is the real me.”

I find a similar argument in the Eighteenth Century Philosopher David Hume:

“For my part, when I enter most intimately into what I call myself, I always stumble on some particular perception or other, of heat or cold, light or shade, love or hatred, pain or pleasure. I never can catch myself at any time without a perception, and never can observe anything but the perception” (Treatise, 1.4.6.3).

Gassho,
Mateus
Sat today/LAH

[Jundo]

I sometimes offer this other way of explaining:

Suppose a single cell on your (Rob's) hand (one cell of your left thumb particularly, and in the nail of the left thumb even more particularly) suddenly was "born" (as the product of prior cells splitting). However, this amazing single cell happens to become conscious and aware, and starts to think about himself as a "being" like we do (let us call him "Charlie Cell"). He basically feels about himself and his life like you and I do right now about ours. The way his little mind is structured separates his "Charlie-ness" from all the rest of the "outside" environment. He is right down there, in Rob's thumb.

For a moment, let us pretend that "Rob" is the whole universe.

Charlie Cell feels fairly independent, although he experiences that he sometimes bumps into and interacts with the other trillion cells of the nail and thumb (some of which also appear to be conscious and aware, some not, much as there appear to be some other sentient beings in our world, like people and cats, and things which are not, like tables and chairs. Some of those other cells Charlie likes, some he does not like or thinks of as ugly and scary ... maybe a virus or cancer cell ... some he has no opinion about).

Got the scene?

Does Charlie Cell exist? Yes, for awhile. Charlie is Charlie.

But, looked at from other perspectives, is Charlie really Charlie? NO!

First, Charlie Cell --is-- the thumb (not just a part of the thumb ... but the thumb. Thumb is not other than cells, cells simply thumb). Even more precisely, Charlie is the thumb nail. Yes, we westerners like to say that he is "a part of the thumb nail" or "a part of the thumb," but can you also see that there is no thumb without cells, thus: thumb --is-- cells and cells --are-- thumb? (likewise for "thumb nail" and each cell of it).

What is more, all are Rob. If we take all the cells away from Rob, there is no Rob. Oh, yes, we can see that Rob could survive quite nicely without Charlie, his nail or the whole thumb ... but Rob is cells and cells are Rob. Charlie is not merely "part of Rob." ... Charlie is Rob. (I mean, think for a second about the Rob who is reading this: Is your thumb "you" or merely a "part of you"? YES! It might be called a "part of you," but it is "you." You are your thumb, Rob, and all the rest of you. You thumb is not really "not you," Rob, is it?)

As well, Rob is Rob's nose and heart, kidneys, and thumb, toes and eyes and Charlie.

What is more, if Charlie Cell is thumb, and Celia Cell is thumb (she is located in the knuckle), then thumb is thumb, and in that sense, Charlie is Celia (each an aspect of "thumb" so aspects of each other).

What is more, for Charlie to be born and live, he needs most of Rob: He needs the heart that is pumping far away, like our sun that is shining far away, bringing us oxygen and nutrition. Charlie needs all the cells that came before as his ancestors. Charlie needs the kidneys that clear away the waste that Charlie produces, etc. etc. In that sense, Rob is so interconnected, that Charlie does not exist as a separate entity, but is totally dependent on the rest of Rob, e.g., heart and kidneys. Charlie is made of the lunch that Rob ate yesterday, that got broken down into carbon and other atoms and molecules that came together as Charlie too.

But there is more than just "dependent on" heart and kidneys. Charlie --IS-- heart and kidneys (in Eastern thinking) because Charlie is "Rob," and Heart and Kidneys are "Rob" ... thus Rob is Rob ... thus Charlie is Heart is Kidneys (or, if you prefer, "faces" of each other), not merely separate "parts" of Rob. The heart is another face of Charlie, and Charlie is another face of heart because both are faces/facets of Rob. Heck, even the cancer cell is a facet of "Rob" so Charlie is that too.

And all is flowing ... heart is beating, blood is flowing, Charlie (despite feeling solid) is actually a permeable membrane with liquid constantly flowing in and out, bringing oxygen and food in, carrying waste out, which then flows to the kidneys. Charlie is not "solid" but is the whole flowing cycles from lungs to heart to kidneys and back. As a matter of fact, there is so much constant change and flowing that even "Rob" is not really a stagnant and frozen "Rob" universe, but just the flowing and change itself! Rob a moment ago is not even Rob right now!

Well, that is who you are to this planet and whole universe and all the other beings in it.

And that is who your thumb is to you, which means that that is also who your thumb, and every cell in it, is to this planet and whole universe and all the other beings in it.

Even more amazing, unlike our imaginary "Charlie Cell," you and me are actually really conscious, aware ... alive! That means that there are faces of this planet and whole universe that are alive ... and we are them and they are just us. As a matter of fact, if "Rob" is Alive ... then we are all alive as Rob life too! (However, Charlies need not be too concerned about whether Rob is alive or not ... because Charlie's task right now is just to get on with being Charlie. Charlie should just avoid to turn into a "cancer" cell of greed, anger and division, and live healthily and in balance).

By the way, that also means that when Charlie thinks he "dies" (next clipping) he does not really in all ways, because if Charlie is Rob, and Rob's heart keeps going, then Charlie keeps going --as-- Rob (although, alas, not as "Charlie.") Of course, some other cells will grow which will be "thumb" in the future. (However, because they are "thumb/Rob" and Charlie was "thumb/Rob," we can also say that they will likewise be other faces of Charlie because Rob is Rob!) And if there is something beyond "Rob" too ... let's call that "Buddha" ... Charlie and Celia and Thumb and Rob too are just that "Buddha."

We permeate our membranes of "self" vs. "other" ... and experience our total Flowing "Robness" ... in Zazen.

Gassho, J

STLah

Here ya go ... Rob Universe ...

[Rob H]

Thankyou everyone for helping me with this subject. I appreciate it greatly.

Gassho.
Rob.

ST

[Ryudo]

Thank you Jundo.

At times I think I understand part of it all. Sometimes more and sometimes less.
Every single explanation has elements I can connect with.
So I try not to worry about the hard parts and just picture the words, even as “sounds”
(A bit like when I chant chinese Sutras I only have a vage idea of what I am chanting but it can be very intense never the less) In the same way I sometimes read texts or essays that keep most of their secrets to me but small parts may be reveiled even without noticing.

So I humbly bow before you philosofic masters and thank you.

Gassho/SatToday

[Jishin]

No Self...I Need Help WIth An Explaination, Please.

Hi everyone.
I know this is one of the basic tenets but it's one that I seem to have the most trouble understanding. I've watched the Buddha Basics video but I still don't quite get it (Sorry, Jundo).
This is how I see it right now, just so you know where I'm at:

Everything is interconnected - Me, you, a rock, the moon, a spider everything. If I could go back far enough in time to where 'all' began, this is where the interconnection comes from. Point Zero for lack of a better couple of words.

I may be 'separate' in my looks, my speech etc and stand out so to speak but just as a wave stands out from the surface of an ocean, it is still just the ocean.

It is only my senses followed by my perceptions of those senses that lead me to form a thought and from that thought, I decide what is good, bad or neutral which again strengthens the false belief that I am apart from all other things. ( I feel a sensation when I touch a hot stove. I perceive that as pain. That pain makes me think "Ow!" and I take my hand away. That is unpleasant. The stove burned me.) It is essentially my thoughts that make me think I am separate from everything else.

Am I on the right track or am I missing the point entirely? I understand that I am me, as Jundo said, try not paying your taxes and you'll find out that you are very much you but it's my perceptions and thoughts of everything around me that gives me the illusion of separation from absolutely everything else.

I hope I made some sense and some others here can understand what I am trying to say.

Gassho.
Rob.

ST

Hi Rob,

Your mother was pregnant with you. Before the umbilical cord was cut were you a self or did you have to wait until the cord was cut? Maybe you were a self when your father’s sperm penetrated your mother’s egg? Maybe when you were an egg or a sperm or just DNA? Maybe when you were protein or carbon. Maybe after the Big Bang or even before? Maybe at a certain point during the pregnancy the fetus was determined viable and you become a self? Maybe when your parents started calling you Rob and you started responding to Rob and you become a self? When a pregnancy test made you a self at four months of pregnancy? Or maybe a pregnancy test made you a self at 6 weeks? Or maybe you were a self but your mother miscarried without her knowledge and you came and went and become a self and left without others knowing?

I am king of the world and what I say is the law. If you don’t agree with me you get decapitated. I hereby declare a self when you turn 5. There is no self before age 5. I also declare that at age 55 you no longer exist and must disappear. You will be removed from society, maybe by placement in a nursing home or worse...

Now you have your answer.

Got to get ready for work. Have a good day.

Gasho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Rob H]

I am king of the world and what I say is the law. If you don’t agree with me you get decapitated. I hereby declare a self when you turn 5. There is no self before age 5. I also declare that at age 55 you no longer exist and must disappear. You will be removed from society, maybe by placement in a nursing home or worse...

Now you have your answer.

Got to get ready for work. Have a good day.

Gasho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Gassho.
Rob.

ST

[Sekishi]

I may be 'separate' in my looks, my speech etc and stand out so to speak but just as a wave stands out from the surface of an ocean, it is still just the ocean.

"Different", but never separate.

Gassho,
Sekishi
#sat #lah

[Sekishi]

I am king of the world and what I say is the law. If you don’t agree with me you get decapitated. I hereby declare a self when you turn 5. There is no self before age 5. I also declare that at age 55 you no longer exist and must disappear. You will be removed from society, maybe by placement in a nursing home or worse...

Thus illustrates the destructive power of words like "is" and "are" and "should" -- turning beings into little gods who rule over one sided fiefdoms.



Sekishi
#sat #lah

[Seishin]

Thank you Rob for raising this question.
Thank you Jundo for introducing Charlie. I thought I had this one sorted but your description of Rob/Charlie etc clarifies it much more.

[Jundo]

Suppose a single cell on your (Rob's) hand (one cell of your left thumb particularly, and in the nail of the left thumb even more particularly) suddenly was "born" (as the product of prior cells splitting). However, this amazing single cell happens to become conscious and aware, and starts to think about himself as a "being" like we do (let us call him "Charlie Cell"). He basically feels about himself and his life like you and I do right now about ours. The way his little mind is structured separates his "Charlie-ness" from all the rest of the "outside" environment. He is right down there, in Rob's thumb.

For a moment, let us pretend that "Rob" is the whole universe.

Allow me to say a bit more about Charlie and Rob ...

Rob (our universe) in which the thumb and heart and blood and all the rest are Charlie ... are each and all also "empty." Oh, the Rob/universe appears to be a "thing," and all the planets and tables and grains of sand and people of the universe (the heart and skin and stuff of Rob Universe) appear to be "things ...

... but they are all "empty" too. So, Rob is actually so fluid and changing constantly, and so much just an idea of a "thing" in our minds, that when we drop the idea of "Rob/Universe" there is really no "Rob/Universe" either. Call what remains "Buddha" ... but then even "Buddha" turns into another idea and thing. So, best not even to say "Buddha." Likewise for calling this "Emptiness" or "the Absolute" ... because putting names and ideas on this also turns this into small "things" that are held as limiting ideas between our ears.

So, drop all that away too. The result is not a nihilistic Zero however, but rather a most precious flowing whatever.

However, for Dogen and other Mahayana Buddhists, the whole of this "whatever" pours back into Rob/Universe ... and back into every bit of Rob without exception ... and back into Charlies ...

... such that Charlie becomes truly a shining jewel, more real than real can be.

We can also say that Charlie is at the "center of the universe" shining like a shining jewel holding withing the whole universe (but, then again, so is everything and everyone without exception).

Yes, Mahayana Zen Teachings are pretty wild.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Rob H]

Allow me to say a bit more about Charlie and Rob ...

Rob (our universe) in which the thumb and heart and blood and all the rest are Charlie ... are each and all also "empty." Oh, the Rob/universe appears to be a "thing," and all the planets and tables and grains of sand and people of the universe (the heart and skin and stuff of Rob Universe) appear to be "things ...

... but they are all "empty" too. So, Rob is actually so fluid and changing constantly, and so much just an idea of a "thing" in our minds, that when we drop the idea of "Rob/Universe" there is really no "Rob/Universe" either. Call what remains "Buddha" ... but then even "Buddha" turns into another idea and thing. So, best not even to say "Buddha." Likewise for calling this "Emptiness" or "the Absolute" ... because putting names and ideas on this also turns this into small "things" that are held as limiting ideas between our ears.

So, drop all that away too. The result is not a nihilistic Zero however, but rather a most precious whatever.

However, for Dogen and other Mahayana Buddhists, the whole of this "whatever" pours back into Rob/Universe ... and back into every bit of Rob without exception ... and back into Charlies ...

... such that Charlie becomes truly a shining jewel, more real than real can be.

We can also say that Charlie is at the "center of the universe" shining like a shining jewel holding withing the whole universe (but, then again, so is everything and everyone without exception).

Yes, Mahayana Zen Teachings are pretty wild.

Gassho, J

STLah

Thankyou Jundo Sensei.
Emptiness is one of the things that I am proposing to study soon as I have a little trouble getting my Western thinking brain around this too. You wouldn't happen to have some links that could explain it simply to me, a simple fellow?
Just when I think I have grasped it, I lose it or confuse it

Gassho.
Rob.

ST