the stink of traditions

Re: the stink of traditions

Having read over this thread, nearly every thing can be resolved by

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"

It's the 'sanity check' I use almost daily. It applies to so many things, well beyond the realm of religious thought.

[Jundo]

Re: the stink of traditions

Sameness and Difference

We can celebrate our one identity and unbroken wholeness ... we can honor and live our own uniqueness.

We can also learn from each other, while yet civilly and respectfully criticizing and contrasting our various ways.

I like sports Koans ...

I do not say that baseball is a "better" sport than soccer(football) for all people in all situations ... and all sports are but the universe at play. But as a baseball coach and player, I know the beauties of my own sport and that one had better stick to one game at a time. One should not try to play soccer with a baseball bat, or try to hit a home run without using one's hands (although, at the same time, that is the Koan and precisely what we must do!) :shock: No points to score, no field to run ...even as we round the bases or move down field!

In any event, on this Treeleaf Field of Dreams ... we play baseball!

Gassho, the Coach

.

[ScottyDoo]

Re: the stink of traditions

Very well put Jim. I agree with what you said, generally it does seem to be the people and not the tradition.

I've been jumping rock to rock as well for awhile and am tired of slipping. I've received some good and simple advice from our dear Jundo today, but it's exactly what I needed to hear (or read I guess). Thank you all.

With palms together...

[lorax]

Re: the stink of traditions

HI,

I have been following this thread for a few days. A lot of uncomfortable if not down right nasty experiences have been described. I really don’t think it is the traditions that are the issue but rather the individuals in the groups encountered. If one is uncomfortable then it is probably a good bet that the group is not going to change nor is the teacher or leader, so it is up to the individual to make the decision to stay with a group or leader or split.

I had a real nasty supervisor many years ago and I went to the top manager of the unit who was also my mentor and expressed my frustration with the ineptness of my supervisor. The manager’s answer was unexpected. Simply stated, "you have to learn to live with it or find another path. Your supervisor is not going to change". In other words there is no value in bad mouthing a group or leader, it’s up to the individual to accept or change the situation.

For me, picking a tradition or sangha to practice with was sort of like finding a solid and dry rock in the middle of a stream. I had been jumping from one rock to another so to speak for over 10 years, often slipping into the stream and getting discouraged to the point of giving it all up. Then, late last spring I found a very solid and dry rock in Treeleaf. Practicing with this one tradition and one sangha has eliminated the bad experiences, the unsettled feelings and confusion and as a spin off I find myself better dealing with some very complex life issues. Works for me.


Wish you all well,

JIm

[Kevin Solway]

Re: the stink of traditions

when the gong chimes...you sit.

I'm one of those Buddhists who don't do anything different.

Or, more normally, whatever everyone else does, I'll do the opposite. I've learned that's usually the right way. It's a kind of rule of thumb: "When two or three people meet together, they do something wrong."

[ScottyDoo]

Re: the stink of traditions

I am not sure why this big rift or sectarianism that exists w/i some quarters between TB and ZB. In our Sangha, due to the size of the Buddhist community, it's "ecumenical." We have TB, ZB, Buddhists, and even non-Buddhists. But. When hit the gong....we sit. No sides. No sects. Just the Dharma.

I have heard that referred to as a Rime sangha. I don't know the origin of the word, but I understand it to be a sangha of members on various paths, with different teachers, from different lineages...but as you say, when the gong chimes...you sit.

[chicanobudista]

Re: the stink of traditions

On another note, one of the sangha members said she was grateful to have a sangha from the Tibetan side of things as she in the past year met with a local group of zen practitioners and encountered what many would consider the "stink of zen". She said they were very arrogant and told her if she didn't have the heart sutra memorized within the next couple meetings then she was no longer welcome to meet with them. She's an EXTREMELY sensitive woman, so it may not have transpired exactly like that, but all I know is that I've been trying to track down this group and have been unsuccessful. I had no idea there were any zen practitioners in my small remote town.

That's is unfortunate. And that is one zendo I am staying away from. I can see how monks and nuns may need to memorize chants, sutras, etc, but "lay" folks like most of us in this forum do not have to (IMHO). If you can, great for you, but requiring memorization w/i a time frame, that''s just a no-no for me. I probably only remember the first line and last line.

I am not sure why this big rift or sectarianism that exists w/i some quarters between TB and ZB. In our Sangha, due to the size of the Buddhist community, it's "ecumenical." We have TB, ZB, Buddhists, and even non-Buddhists. But. When hit the gong....we sit. No sides. No sects. Just the Dharma.

[ScottyDoo]

Re: the stink of traditions

Sorry to sound like a hard-ass suddenly. Up at 4AM with a sick child.

Oh those mornings are the best =)

No worries, you don't sound like a hard-ass. I appreciate you just telling it like it is, that works best for me. I have known that I will ultimately need to make a choice. What's been tough is that my only local resource is tibetan, and even though I'm not particularly drawn to tibetan, I do crave having face to face interaction with like-minded people (which is hard in a 90% Mormon town, when you're not Mormon). There is this elusive group of zen practitioners I mentioned that I have yet to locate...this may help my choice.

I very much appreciate your advice and/or comments.

I guess my situation really is one of the reason for Treeleaf's existence eh? No local resources.

Gassho.

[Jundo]

Re: the stink of traditions

Hi Scotty,

You will have to make a choice at some point. Sorry to sound like those folks with the "Heart Sutra", but you have to choose at some point whether to practice Karate in the Karate Dojo or Ai-Ki-Do in the Ai-Ki-Do Dojo ... not Kara-Ki-Do! 8) "Kara-Ki-Do" will just have you all tangled up in knots, tripping over your own two feet!

Shikantaza, precisely for being a Practice of radical non-searching ... dropping all running after special states in this life or any other (with that "dropping of all searching and running after" being, right there, the Special of Special States when tasted as such) ... simply should not be mixed with practices that speak of some other way.

It is fine for other folks perhaps, walking up their own mountain path. But not on this path, by which we give up the searching and seeking ... finding the mountain ever under foot.

Sorry to sound like a hard-ass suddenly. Up at 4AM with a sick child.

Gassho, Jundo

[ScottyDoo]

Re: the stink of traditions

Hi Scotty,

One question I want to ask: Are you practicing Shikantaza?

That is about the one thing expected in these doors anyway (that, and to be kind to each other). I am not an advocate of mixing Shikantaza with most Tibetan Practices, and I am truly quite critical of the mix&match approach.

Gassho, Jundo

That is what I am currently practicing in my personal practice, though as a sangha it has been requested that we do another as a group, though it is very similar to Shikantaza, which is why she has said she has no problems with my choice of personal meditation.

I'm not a fan of the mix & match approach too much, though I admit that's been my experience so far as I'm discovering my path. I read and am taught many different types of meditation, but I just can't drop Shikantaza, and have a hard time doing others, it just sits well with me I guess. (no pun intended).

[Jundo]

Re: the stink of traditions

Hi Scotty,

One question I want to ask: Are you practicing Shikantaza?

That is about the one thing expected in these doors anyway (that, and to be kind to each other). I am not an advocate of mixing Shikantaza with most Tibetan Practices, and I am truly quite critical of the mix&match approach.

Gassho, Jundo

[ScottyDoo]

Re: the stink of traditions

It's interesting to me that I come across this topic today...

I've been thinking about this a lot lately as I meditate on my personal journey. I'm fairly new to Buddhism compared to many and am finding myself in the first time with a teacher/student relationship. My sangha asked a teacher, who had been offering guidance to the group for the last few years, to officially become our spiritual guide and teacher. With this as well, there is a form tie to the Drikung Kagyu lineage and her Lama, Garchen Rinpoche. That's all fine and dandy, no issues there.

I, as many do, come from a Christian background, and I find the bad taste still remains in my mouth. This leaves me very skeptical when it comes to many things, and my sensors are going off many times as I do more research into the lineage, it's teachings, beliefs, etc. The major warning bells go off for me when it comes to practices like Guru Yoga, Phowa, and with the closing, long life prayers we recite in our meetings. I am all for respecting our teachers, but some of this just seems to go a bit far for me and gives off the feeling of deifying them and/or worshiping them.

Am I just too sensitive given my past issues with Christianity?

I think this is one of the things that initially drew me to zen, as I didn't come across the more esoteric and "out there" (imho) practices I'm encountering with Tibetan.

On another note, one of the sangha members said she was grateful to have a sangha from the Tibetan side of things as she in the past year met with a local group of zen practitioners and encountered what many would consider the "stink of zen". She said they were very arrogant and told her if she didn't have the heart sutra memorized within the next couple meetings then she was no longer welcome to meet with them. She's an EXTREMELY sensitive woman, so it may not have transpired exactly like that, but all I know is that I've been trying to track down this group and have been unsuccessful. I had no idea there were any zen practitioners in my small remote town.

[Tb]

Re: the stink of traditions

It's a large part of why the TB path puts me off.

Hi.

Was that a pun at me ? :shock:

May the force be with you
Tb

[chicanobudista]

Re: the stink of traditions

I had already forgotten about my post or this issue. :shock: I still go to e-Sangha, but I limit myself to lurking.

[Jundo]

Re: the stink of traditions

Hi Kevin,

I am a "different paths up the mountain for different folks" kind of Buddhist* ... though I think the path I walk is a fine one, a way I know well and appreciate. Thus I recommend it to others.

But, in the end, what is important is not the path, but the mountain.

Gassho, Jundo

*Perhaps it need not even be a "Buddhist" path