Zen and the neuro-diverse brain

[Onka]

Can anyone direct me to a thread where folks who live with ASD/ADHD or both like me have discussed their practice and specifically the challenges associated with how they manage the less amazing aspects. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who has found Zazen to be amazing in helping to regulate or calm them but what about those times where we go from 0-100 in a second without the ability to pause long enough to start sitting?
If there has by some miracle not been a discussion on this I guess I've just started one.

To clarify my relationship with Zazen, it is in its overall infancy. I've been sitting with dedication for about 7 or 8 months and am one of those annoying folk who say "sit Zazen and if that doesn't work sit Zazen" because for the most part this is what I do because it works... for me. My overall Buddhist knowledge though is pretty average at best I'm afraid. Anyhoo...

Gassho
Anna.

[Jakuden]

Hi Anna, I have one of those “special brains” as well. It makes Zazen and the ritualistic forms of Zen both very difficult and supremely beneficial. I don’t think I would have been able to follow this path without Jundo and the flexibility of Treeleaf; although I do sit formally daily, the time of day and length of my sit vary greatly and I do a lot of insta-Zazen. The discipline and effort involved, in turn, are of benefit in infinite ways to myself and those around me.

I would imagine traditional Zen centers would inadvertently scare away many of us... I almost cut my pinky off in the kitchen my first day at the Monastery... but they were patient with my scatterbrained ways and so I kept going back. If I lived there, I probably would always be the one doing clumsy things, forgetting stuff, sleeping through the bell etc. but here at Treeleaf I can learn at my own pace and in my own way.
Plus the forum gives the advantage of a much more controlled social platform so there’s much less pressure on anyone “on the spectrum “ socially.

These things have been discussed here before, not sure if they have their own thread though... now they do!
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Onka]

Thanks for your reply Jakuden.
Insta-Zazen YES! I am very much an adherent to that but as you may well understand, 'catching' the moment so we can go to Insta-Zazen is the real challenge, not to mention the huge layers of guilt we pile onto ourselves after a 'meltdown'.
N.B. For those playing at home a meltdown is the moment literally everything becomes so incredibly overwhelming that we can lash out in ways that aren't that amazing or completely shut down. We can hurt ourselves and others which leaves us exhausted and full of guilt. I ain't purdy.

Gassho Anna

Sat today/Lent a hand

[Junkyo]

Hi Anna!

I am also one of those individuals with a "special brain". I am ASD/Aspergers, and was diagnosed as a child and now at 30 years old I have had a couple of decades of "figuring it out". I have found the "routine" that my practice gives has helped to give a really solid foundation for the rest of my day. I am definitely a creature of habit and when my day gets a little too chaotic it really helps to have my practice to fall back on as it really gives a sense of stability. For me it is really important to start my day off with formal practice as it sets the tone for the rest of the day.

Thanks for starting this thread! It will be nice to chat with others on the spectrum and explore how our practice relates to our experiences!

Gassho,

Junkyo
SAT

[Kyonin]

Hi Anna,

To sit zazen even when you are most distracted or simply you don't feel like sitting, is most beneficial. Most of the times we tend to let our minds run wild with no discipline or containment, and boy does the mind hates to sit quietly!

So we sit and practice form and ceremony. For some of us it's super hard even more so if we have some particular condition. I have come to sit whenever I feel like I am feeling aversion. And within the first 10 minutes, the aversion goes away.

Thank you for sharing.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAN

[Meian]

Hi Anna,

I'm another one, and I've written recently about my experience elsewhere here. My being overwhelmed tends to go into shutdown mode where I isolate and go silent for a bit, followed by brief periods of light social interaction. I try to self-regulate but in times of high stress I can really go deep into my shell for a while.

I also have a daily practice, but intense anxiety about attending an in-person sangha again. I am unable to sit still, stay quiet or not fidget. My face does what it wants to, and health problems make it more interesting. With Treeleaf none of that matters. I can sit and be with and bother no one. All the labels and differences drop, and we're all just human beings sitting.

The side effect is I find myself impulsively bowing to most people I meet and work with. Most appreciate this sign of respect, but my family often says, "oh, mom's bowing again...." but they never stop me. [emoji5]

Feel free to msg me if you want to talk about things. Sometimes I may take a while to answer, but eventually I respond. It's not easy but I have found zazen to be good for a lot of what I deal with. And TreeLeaf has been the best place for me, even when I am silent -- I fit here.

Thank you for posting, Anna. We need all voices. [emoji4]

Gassho
Kim
St lh

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[Shujin]

Hi Anna,

I've struggled with similar circumstances for years. Age has helped and, for me, medicine. Zazen used to feel like trying to wrestle an octopus. I lurk about the forum quite a bit, but I'm always happy to talk. You are welcome to drop me a line if you wish.

Gassho,
Shujin

ST LaH

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[Onka]

Hi Anna!

I am also one of those individuals with a "special brain". I am ASD/Aspergers, and was diagnosed as a child and now at 30 years old I have had a couple of decades of "figuring it out". I have found the "routine" that my practice gives has helped to give a really solid foundation for the rest of my day. I am definitely a creature of habit and when my day gets a little too chaotic it really helps to have my practice to fall back on as it really gives a sense of stability. For me it is really important to start my day off with formal practice as it sets the tone for the rest of the day.

Thanks for starting this thread! It will be nice to chat with others on the spectrum and explore how our practice relates to our experiences!

Gassho,

Junkyo
SAT

Thank you Junkyo.
I have only in the last few days started my day with Zazen in order to set a good foundation for the rest of the day. I'll keep you posted as to how it goes.

Gassho
Anna

Sat today

[Onka]

Hi Anna,

To sit zazen even when you are most distracted or simply you don't feel like sitting, is most beneficial. Most of the times we tend to let our minds run wild with no discipline or containment, and boy does the mind hates to sit quietly!

So we sit and practice form and ceremony. For some of us it's super hard even more so if we have some particular condition. I have come to sit whenever I feel like I am feeling aversion. And within the first 10 minutes, the aversion goes away.

Thank you for sharing.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAN

Thanks for your reply Kyonin.
Yes, Zazen as literally been transformative. And yes, to quiet my mind seems to take around 10 minutes before quality Zazen practice can occur. The challenge remains to essentially catch the moment before a 'meltdown' so that Zazen can be undertaken. I'm hoping that overall discipline in practice will help.
Gassho
Anna.

Sat today

[Onka]

Hi Anna,

I'm another one, and I've written recently about my experience elsewhere here. My being overwhelmed tends to go into shutdown mode where I isolate and go silent for a bit, followed by brief periods of light social interaction. I try to self-regulate but in times of high stress I can really go deep into my shell for a while.

I also have a daily practice, but intense anxiety about attending an in-person sangha again. I am unable to sit still, stay quiet or not fidget. My face does what it wants to, and health problems make it more interesting. With Treeleaf none of that matters. I can sit and be with and bother no one. All the labels and differences drop, and we're all just human beings sitting.

The side effect is I find myself impulsively bowing to most people I meet and work with. Most appreciate this sign of respect, but my family often says, "oh, mom's bowing again...." but they never stop me. [emoji5]

Feel free to msg me if you want to talk about things. Sometimes I may take a while to answer, but eventually I respond. It's not easy but I have found zazen to be good for a lot of what I deal with. And TreeLeaf has been the best place for me, even when I am silent -- I fit here.

Thank you for posting, Anna. We need all voices. [emoji4]

Gassho
Kim
St lh

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk

Thank you for making me smile with "mom's bowing again" haha.
Thank you too for the offer to message you. Treeleaf really is a haven of goodness isn't it.

Gassho
Anna

Sat today

[Onka]

Hi Anna,

I've struggled with similar circumstances for years. Age has helped and, for me, medicine. Zazen used to feel like trying to wrestle an octopus. I lurk about the forum quite a bit, but I'm always happy to talk. You are welcome to drop me a line if you wish.

Gassho,
Shujin

ST LaH

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

Thanks for your kind offer Shujin.
At 47 and with help from a multitude of medications I am able to function at a reasonable level. Life eh... I thought I would have it sorted by now haha.

Gassho
Anna

Sat today

[karlmalachut]

Hello,

I struggle with a neurotypical brain too being an abuse survivor I struggle with PTSD . Noises during practice really bother me at times but recently I read a book called The Monkey is the Messenger it has helped me a lot with accepting whatever anxiety I have as a part of my Zazen . I understand that the psychology of Shikantanza doesn't interest some here but I think it is fascinating and some Zen teachers especially Joan Halifax have done a lot of work around it that I think give aids to help .

here is a series of Dharma Talks at this link from Upaya on Trauma,Stress Loss and Happiness they may help you as they have me:

https://www.upaya.org/2011/09/zen-brain-aug-2011-series-trauma-stress-loss-and-happiness-all-10-parts/

Here is a link to The Monkey is the Messenger at Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Monkey-Messenger-Meditation-What-Trying/dp/1611805848/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1X807B4AD5DA3&keywords=monkey+is+the+messenger&qid=1561432343&s=books&sprefix=Monkey+is+the+M%2Caps%2C310&sr=1-1

Hope these help you with your neurotypical brain as they have me.

Gassho,

Karl

STLaH

[Onka]

Hello,

I struggle with a neurotypical brain too being an abuse survivor I struggle with PTSD . Noises during practice really bother me at times but recently I read a book called The Monkey is the Messenger it has helped me a lot with accepting whatever anxiety I have as a part of my Zazen . I understand that the psychology of Shikantanza doesn't interest some here but I think it is fascinating and some Zen teachers especially Joan Halifax have done a lot of work around it that I think give aids to help .

here is a series of Dharma Talks at this link from Upaya on Trauma,Stress Loss and Happiness they may help you as they have me:

https://www.upaya.org/2011/09/zen-brain-aug-2011-series-trauma-stress-loss-and-happiness-all-10-parts/

Here is a link to The Monkey is the Messenger at Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Monkey-Messenger-Meditation-What-Trying/dp/1611805848/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1X807B4AD5DA3&keywords=monkey+is+the+messenger&qid=1561432343&s=books&sprefix=Monkey+is+the+M%2Caps%2C310&sr=1-1

Hope these help you with your neurotypical brain as they have me.

Gassho,

Karl

STLaH

Thanks for sharing Karl and thank you for the links and book recommendation.
At the moment I'm battling my way through Nishijima's translation of the Shobogenzo. Once I've read it a few times (with all the translation notes and other notes it's pretty heavy going - for me) I'll be in a better place to position to read The Monkey is the Messenger.
*shakes head in disbelief* Who knew that there is so much Buddhist and Dharma related material to read out there?!

Be kind to yourself Karl and thank you again.

Gassho
Anna

Sat today/Lent a hand

[Jundo]

Please join us in our "No Words" bookclub where we will begin Okumura Roshi's wonderful introduction to Shobogenzo "Realizing Genjo Koan", in about a week. Please join us.

Shobogenzo is a bit tricky without some understanding.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Amelia]

I'm sure that I'm not the only one who has found Zazen to be amazing in helping to regulate or calm them but what about those times where we go from 0-100 in a second without the ability to pause long enough to start sitting?

I'm no teacher, but in my experience it is ok to lose control sometimes, since losing control means we never had the control to control the controlling in the first place! In my past struggles with physical anxiety, panic attacks are quite sudden, and I can't sit zazen during a panic attack-- it makes it worse for me. I would just go through the motions and routines that I would take to get back to normal. Zen practice helped me in the long run to kind of prevent it over time-- not stop it in the middle. It has been almost a decade work-in-progress. Some years are a step back, especially if there has been some trauma. When it comes up now I kind of just tell it that I've seen it before and that I know what it's up to, and that it can stay if it wants, but I won't retreat like I used to.

Gassho, sat today lah