The Monkey Mind a hero in Zazen:Some Dharma Thoughts

[karlmalachut]

Lately I have been reading the book by Ralph De La Rosa The Monkey is the Messenger . Ralph De La Rosa is a Psychotherapist and is of the Dharma Ocean lineage in Tibetan Buddhism. In his book he asserts that when we go into monkey mind while sitting that it is not exactly a bad thing but something that the anxious thoughts we have that seem to be running are there to teach us something and we should embrace them or in his own words

"Relating to our emotional parts with compassion,we start to see they have been working hard on our behalf all along.They have either been holding our pain fiercely for us or fiercely vying for safety.In shifting towards the growth mindset,we discover that the disruptiveness in our life is actually a calling to look beyond the superficial and reach to greater satisfaction"

Thinking about this radical idea that the monkey mind is actually a good thing in regards to my own practice of Zazen I'm reminded of the story of how Buddhism was spread to China held in the epic Journey to the West where the protagonist of the whole story is Sun Wukong,better known as the Monkey King . Sun Wukong defies the Jade Emperor himself causing a veritable ruckus in heaven just because of who he is . Eventually he comes down to Earth and is tasked alongside a monk who in many ways become his best friend .They are joined by a Pig-demon .Throughout the whole epic Sun Wukong is the hero conquering every obstacle put in front of him learning virtues a long the way but doing things in his own personal way at times erratic,comedic even incredibly faus pas. At the end he attains Buddhahood. In Zazen I'm reminded a lot of those hard times in my life,how I may have hurt others,regrets and things I want to do after Zazen . Like many here I get stuck in them but in taking De La Rosa's advice during Zazen I have taken these thoughts as koans asking myself what are these thoughts trying to teach me?I have found a lot of amazing things about who I am through them.

My own monkey mind has been like Sun Wukong one thing in my own life I have found myself so attached to is my own procrastination and why do I procrastinate?In my sitting when regrets of why I haven't done something yet have come up I realized the advice I read so much regarding zazen "Do it and you will see" has actually helped my anxiety over procrastination is slowly going away but it took me engaging with my monkey mind over procrastination . Throughout Journey to the West Sun Wukong was engaged and even asked why do you do that? In just asking our anxious thoughts like I have with my procrastination why do you do that? Seems to at least have helped my practice.

I think we can learn a lot from our monkey mind it is a buddha waiting to be enlightened itself but we do have to journey with it I feel at times as hard as it may be but I am finding in my own Zazen that the monkey truly is the messenger.

So I'm wondering what has been your experience of the monkey mind in your Zazen?

-Karl
Sat Today

Here is a link to the book on Amazon if anyone wants to get their own copy:

http://https://www.amazon.com/Monkey...s%2C771&sr=1-1

[Jakuden]

Hi Karl,

Yep those monkeys are busy little critters with the best intentions, and I always take what they have to say “under advisement” with a grain of salt. Except during Zazen, when I give them no attention at all, and they have become pretty okay with that, though some days they can still be pretty insistent. Monkeys need love too.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Jundo]

Hi Karl,

l am a simple fellow compared to all that, and Shikantaza is not so analytical. We just let the "monkey mind" be, without either getting pulled in by the monkeys or stirring up the monkeys with a stick. Leave the monkeys alone, paying attention to the breath or "open awareness," and the monkeys tend to settle down. There is no analysis or psychological assessing during Shikantaza, and only Just Sitting for Sitting's sake, with Sitting as the one act to do and place to be in that moment.

Please don't complicate Shikantaza.

That said, if after Zazen, one wishes to see a psychologist or engage in inquiry into the significance of thoughts or emotions you can. You can do many things after Zazen, from watch a baseball game to eat a sandwich. However, during Zazen we do none of that ... neither baseball or sandwiches or psychology ... and one just sits.

l think that we live in an overly psychologized world now, in which people try to figure out too much, and analyze to pieces. That is all well and good, and l know that there is a time and place for such things, but Shikantaza is the very opposite of pulling apart, lnstead, it is simple sitting in which life is left alone, and all comes together into Wholeness.

So, l cannot recommend such a practice of Zazen.

Of course, off the cushion, we do seek to live in a gentle way, minimizing harm to others and to ourself. That is our way too.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

PS - ln my opinion, sometimes we are diligent, and sometimes we procrastinate, and both are okay. There is a time for each. Sometime, get the work done by the deadline, sometime stop and smell the roses and let time drift by. Of course, there is a time for each, and we should be discerning.

[Horin]

Funny.. i wrote a little text for a friend that just started meditation and he is very much struggling with monkey mind, archievements and ideas during meditating...
If you want to read what i have wrote to him:


"when we sit shikantaza, we do not try to purify anything - we are already whole, theres nothing lacking, nothing stained. We might have the idea to sit for the sake of becoming awakened, to make some progress, to attain something. But this is just our deluded thinking we identify with.
rather, while sitting, we embrace everything that arises, all perceptions in this vast, open awareness. we embrace our ideas about what good and bad zazen is, we embrace our expectations arising, our boredom, fears, whatever...
this way we maintain right samadhi without manipulating our experience, without caring about our mind states or whatsoever arises.
If we long for states that feel good or for moments of no-thought, its just some thoughts of desire arising. If we want to reject the present moment, because it does not feel like right zazen, we also recognize this as some thought activity. Whats the I, the doer, else than another perception arising? By returning to the spacious awareness any time we start to deal with those thoughts, when we get caught up in thinking. We let these thoughts come and go like clouds in the sky, simply being aware of what passing by.
we awaken through this practice moment by moment from distraction and entanglement.
by not craving or being attatched to certain thoughts or states, nor by pushing away what we encounter and we exhaust this way our karma this very moment because we do not react to urges and thought patterns but let them go.
we transcend our mind poisons by simply sitting, being aware of thoughts, emotions, sensations..and encounter the truth thats beyond thoughts, beyond concepts but not seperate from it.

So there are many good instructions how to sit zazen or shikantaza, but as long we conceptualize them in some way, we are far away from real sitting. When we perceive things coming up, bring the slightest opinion, idea, like, dislike into it we go astray. its still the involvement of mind poisons. So the ordinary way how we are concious of the things is not the way of wholehearted sitting. we have to go beyond knowing, beyond the experiencer, beyond judgements, beyond the identification with inner mono- or dialoges. We do not match what is happening with the concepts of the sitting instructions, ideas or past experiences nor check our awareness in any other way. We just sit silently and let the mind play its tricks without any involvement"


So maybe thats also a kind of feedback you asked to, Karl.

Gassho and bows


Stlah,
Ben

[Jundo]

Funny.. i wrote a little text for a friend that just started meditation and he is very much struggling with monkey mind, archievements and ideas during meditating...
If you want to read what i have wrote to him:


"when we sit shikantaza, we do not try to purify anything - we are already whole, theres nothing lacking, nothing stained. We might have the idea to sit for the sake of becoming awakened, to make some progress, to attain something. But this is just our deluded thinking we identify with.
rather, while sitting, we embrace everything that arises, all perceptions in this vast, open awareness. we embrace our ideas about what good and bad zazen is, we embrace our expectations arising, our boredom, fears, whatever...
this way we maintain right samadhi without manipulating our experience, without caring about our mind states or whatsoever arises.
If we long for states that feel good or for moments of no-thought, its just some thoughts of desire arising. If we want to reject the present moment, because it does not feel like right zazen, we also recognize this as some thought activity. Whats the I, the doer, else than another perception arising? By returning to the spacious awareness any time we start to deal with those thoughts, when we get caught up in thinking. We let these thoughts come and go like clouds in the sky, simply being aware of what passing by.
we awaken through this practice moment by moment from distraction and entanglement.
by not craving or being attatched to certain thoughts or states, nor by pushing away what we encounter and we exhaust this way our karma this very moment because we do not react to urges and thought patterns but let them go.
we transcend our mind poisons by simply sitting, being aware of thoughts, emotions, sensations..and encounter the truth thats beyond thoughts, beyond concepts but not seperate from it.

So there are many good instructions how to sit zazen or shikantaza, but as long we conceptualize them in some way, we are far away from real sitting. When we perceive things coming up, bring the slightest opinion, idea, like, dislike into it we go astray. its still the involvement of mind poisons. So the ordinary way how we are concious of the things is not the way of wholehearted sitting. we have to go beyond knowing, beyond the experiencer, beyond judgements, beyond the identification with inner mono- or dialoges. We do not match what is happening with the concepts of the sitting instructions, ideas or past experiences nor check our awareness in any other way. We just sit silently and let the mind play its tricks without any involvement"


So maybe thats also a kind of feedback you asked to, Karl.

Gassho and bows


Stlah,
Ben

Gee, it is nice to know that somebody is listening and getting the message. You earn your name today, Hishiryo ... thinking-not-thinking ... non-thinking.

Lovely. Lovely. Lovely.

Gassho, J

STLAH

[karlmalachut]

We can agree to disagree . The monkeys are good to sit with. I thought dogmatism wasn't a Buddhist thing.

Gassho,

Karl,ST

[karlmalachut]

Hey,

I Just want to say I was trying to share some thoughts and felt things got a little dogmatic like I wasn't thinking something right in something in regards to my practice . As much someone may not want to "Purify their Monkeys' kind of feel as if was made to feel like I don't do zazen because I embrace sitting with them here. I understand in social media intentions are not always present and I want to assume compassion but do feel policed a little bit and wondering if that was point?

Gassho,

Karl

STLah

[Jundo]

Hey,

I Just want to say I was trying to share some thoughts and felt things got a little dogmatic like I wasn't thinking something right in something in regards to my practice . As much someone may not want to "Purify their Monkeys' kind of feel as if was made to feel like I don't do zazen because I embrace sitting with them here. I understand in social media intentions are not always present and I want to assume compassion but do feel policed a little bit and wondering if that was point?

Gassho,

Karl

STLah

What's up Karl?

Beginner's Mind! Yes, l was criticizing some of what you wrote. (Goes with my job description).

Sounds like your monkeys are running a little wild right now!

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Horin]

Gee, it is nice to know that somebody is listening and getting the message. You earn your name today, Hishiryo ... thinking-not-thinking ... non-thinking.

Lovely. Lovely. Lovely.

Gassho, J

STLAH

Thank you, Roshi
Gassho

Stlah

[serenewolf]

I have lesrned much from monkey mind. Listen not too much or too little, the middle way. During meditation letting it ramble till it tires allows you to get through all of the subconcious sensory imput that builds up and sort throigh various random thoughts which can help solve problems. Often i find my monkey mind asks questions i dont have an answer to and i can later look up (I have spent hours googling stuff because i wondered about something like the neurobiology of dreams.) Sometimes we need to train the monkey, espescially if you suffer depression or anxiety.
Gassho
Sat today
David

[karlmalachut]

Budastan.jpg

Added Sun Wukong to my Budastan alongside of Kannan in honor of the Buddha found in the monkey mind.

Gassho,

Karl , ST

[Ryudo]

Thank you all for this lesson

Gassho/SatToday

[Getchi]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5710[/ATTACH]

Added Sun Wukong to my Budastan alongside of Kannan in honor of the Buddha found in the monkey mind.

Gassho,

Karl , ST

Nice! The motivation of Wukong is primary, his acts are a natural expression of his faith. Before being taught, he only knew himself, but slowly he learns others too. Stealing immortality is a very crafty move indeed. Faith in humanity always being a little annoying, a little lazy and little arrogant I feel helped him realise he is indeed human as well.

I love Journey, and in Australia we had a show called "Monkey" which was that story - it is a classic.