Negative effects of meditation?

[Kyoshin]

Howdy!
I've noticed this article making the rounds; some version of it has appeared on my radar from many different publications. I thought I'd submit it to Treeleaf's hive mind and see what happens. My take, upon reading the article, is that it seems like negative effects are already there in most people, and they just get noticed more in meditation. That jibes well with my own anecdotal experience; when I was practicing acupuncture, my patients with PTSD, severe anxiety, and other such things would report being unable to handle meditation because of it, until they'd gotten a handle on some of those issues.

https://www.newsweek.com/meditation-good-you-25-have-unpleasant-experiences-benefits-may-have-been-1422008

Gassho,
Kyōshin
Satlah

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[Victor]

Seems to me that meditation is a mirror. Sometimes a particularly intense one. Unfortunately most meditators don't have a teacher who can help with this.

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[Tairin]

This feels like non-news for anyone who has been meditating for a while. I am constantly surprised by the things that surface while sitting. I have learned (and continue to learn) to not attach to them. I can certainly see why this would be a turn off for anyone believing and hoping that meditation is an opportunity to escape or bliss out. That’s not why I sit.

Thanks for sharing the article


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Jakuden]

Seems to me that meditation is a mirror. Sometimes a particularly intense one. Unfortunately most meditators don't have a teacher who can help with this.

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Yes exactly! IMHO a teacher is so important.
Even the most benign of medicines can have unexpected adverse effects. Some Zen centers screen would-be practitioners pretty intensely now to make sure they are able to cope with long periods of Zazen, both physically and mentally. At ZMM I had to first do their introductory weekend, and then also have a phone interview with one of the monastics prior to enrolling in Sesshin.

It gets easy after awhile to forget how difficult it is sometimes for a novice sitter to begin learning to look directly at what is in their own mind. It’s not just mind theater yet, it’s still real and true to them.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Doshin]

Eggs are good. Eggs are bad. Eggs are good again. Wait maybe they are not. There is always an alternative view and with the internet we are inundated with every thought. Seems that folks have been meditating for thousands of years and some still do it. All this said with a little humor embracing my brain. My takeaway from the article...if if works for you do it. If it doesn’t don’t.

Gassho
Doshin
Stlah

PS...I live and worked in a very conservative World. I remember 30 years ago while riding around in some state, for some reason, my colleagues got on a rant about meditation and how it was so “not Christian” thus not good for ya. I never shared with them that I did it (now and then) nor did I defend it, I was not interested in changing their mind,

[Jakuden]

Eggs are good. Eggs are bad. Eggs are good again. Wait maybe they are not. There is always an alternative view and with the internet we are inundated with every thought. Seems that folks have been meditating for thousands of years and some still do it. All this said with a little humor embracing my brain. My takeaway from the article...if if works for you do it. If it doesn’t don’t.

Gassho
Doshin
Stlah

Lol! The egg debate drives me crazy especially now that I had a stroke. I have chickens and always have a fridge full of eggs! But guess what, my LDL is 48 now even with the egg consumption: the miracle of Statins! 🥚 🍳
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

PS Sorry I know that’s not relevant to meditation. But an important issue nevertheless 😂

[Shoki]

"The researchers didn't assess possible pre-existing mental health problems of the participants." Really? It didn't occur to them that this might be something to consider? Junk article.

Gassho
STlah
James

[Jishin]

"The researchers didn't assess possible pre-existing mental health problems of the participants." Really? It didn't occur to them that this might be something to consider? Junk article.

Gassho
STlah
James

You have no way of knowing this.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Amelia]

This comes up from time to time. Anxiety can cause me to really focus in on every little trigger inside the body, and sometimes zazen can exacerbate this. With anxiety itself I learned to basically ignore these triggers over time, and eventually zazen followed.

Gassho

Sat today, lah

[Shoki]

You have no way of knowing this.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Jishin,
I have no way of knowing what? That the researchers did not assess pre-existing mental health problems of the participants? It clearly states that in the article.

Gassho
STlah
James

[Jundo]

A couple of comments from looking at the study, and also having read some similar reports of recent years. Here is the full study:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0216643

The "unpleasant experiences" here are defined as:

Participants were asked ... the following question regarding particularly unpleasant meditation-related experiences: “Have you ever had any particularly unpleasant experiences (e.g., anxiety, fear, distorted emotions or thoughts, altered sense of self or the world), which you think may have been caused by your meditation practice?”. The term “particularly unpleasant” was chosen over other potential labels (e.g., adverse, aberrant, negative, challenging, unwanted), which we evaluated as more likely to predetermine the value and significance (or lack thereof) of the experience and nudge participants towards theorising about their experiences. ... Approximately one quarter of participants reported that they had encountered particularly unpleasant meditation-related experiences (e.g., anxiety, fear, distorted emotions or thoughts, altered sense of self or the world) in the past.

That is a wide range of "unpleasant!" A little fear, a little anxiety, a little sadness or an old unpleasant memory arising even once while sitting would all be included, and even then, for only 25% of participants. The test results say:

Our data did not provide any indication of the exact type of experiences or their severity and impact.

There is another scholar researching the negative effects of meditation called the "Dark Night" project.

https://www.brown.edu/research/labs/britton/research/varieties-contemplative-experience

However, it is my general belief that most truly extreme and powerful negative psychological and emotional states would arise from highly concentrated, intense, very long or focused forms of meditation seeking to give rise to unusual and radically altered mind states. The Shikantaza we sit is rather relaxed, "ordinary mind", low-intensity in style, so I believe that triggering truly extreme negative mental states is unlikely in the way we sit. However, one still needs to be careful for some particularly fragile or sensitive individuals.

Thus. I advise people that mild sadness or anxiety that might appear once in awhile is just something to experience and let go. It too shall pass. Old memories or emotions bubble to the surface in the quiet of sitting. If an experience is truly intense, break off sitting. If that happens regularly, STOP sitting ... talk to a teacher about not resuming, it may not be right for you. Other issues are likely at work, and they are manifesting in the sitting. However, my experience with Shikantaza is that such people are rare. The handful of times that someone has reported deep anxiety or the like from sitting, I have advised them to give up the practice and seek counseling from a mental health professional for the anxiety, and to only resuming meditation with that professional's encouragement and approval. That has been rare.

However, for a little passing sadness or the like, something that just pops up now and then which does not particularly feel like something too hard to handle, I would just take it as more scenery passing on the journey.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jishin]

Jishin,
I have no way of knowing what? That the researchers did not assess pre-existing mental health problems of the participants? It clearly states that in the article.

Gassho
STlah
James

It was assessed. They told you so.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

It was assessed. They told you so.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

If I am reading the study correctly, they did not ...

Fourth, we did not assess possible pre-existing mental health problems, which could have confounded our prevalence estimate of particularly unpleasant meditation-related experiences.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0216643

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

If I am reading the study correctly, they did not ...



Gassho, J

STLah

They acknowledged and then excluded. This is an assessment. Additionally, it is not known if it was assed and not included in the study for various reasons.

I don’t agree with what they say BTW.

[Shoki]

They acknowledged and then excluded. This is an assessment. Additionally, it is not known if it was assed and not included in the study for various reasons.

I don’t agree with what they say BTW.

If they did assess, why would the original article state "the researchers did not assess..." ? Did they assess and then not include it as part of the study? If that's considered an assessment I don't understand why they have the "researchers did not assess..." quote. Have not had a chance to read the full study with family members here and a roofer banging away above me.

Gassho
James