Buddhism and Belief

[Meian]

My household is also constantly changing and moving. I try and sit the Zazenkai in instalments throughout the week before everyone else gets up. Although recently an early waking child has made this a bit difficult this week.

Oh and you mentioned an online shul in a previous post, is that PunkTorah or somebody else?

Gassho,

Neil

With Sim Shalom and Central Synagogue NY.

Gassho
Kim
St lh

[Doshin]

Great topic Kyoshin

I come from a family with very strong Baptist roots. I married into a family of Catholics (although my wife is not a practicing Catholic any more). The one exception was my father who kept a very open mind about religion and it was actually through the books on his shelves that I learned the basics of a Buddhism. I say all this because in my mind I’ve been mentally preparing for a discussion or argument which never seems to come. “Why do I believe in all that Buddhist stuff?” “Why do I believe in Buddha?” As if Buddha equals The Christian God.

The truth is I don’t really consider Buddhism a religion. I like what you said about it being a way of life and set of ethics. I purposely avoid the “ist” and “ism” of the Buddha and used the word “practice “ instead.

More I practice the more I become comfortable in my own skin on the topic and I’ve really just boiled it all down to

1. Sit Zazen daily
2. Follow the Precepts to the best of my abiliity
3. Chop wood and carry water

Religion is a tricky topic. I have no interest in arguing this or that with others. I guess that is why I am here. At Treeleaf I find we are encouraged to drop the philosophizing and just sit with what is.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

Tarin,

Your experiences and perspective resonates very well with me. It parallels my life. Personally I have developed an aversion to the words “belief” and “believe” (and religions) not judgmental of others who use those terms to describe their spiritual self (my wife is a wise and open minded practicing Orthodox Christian with beliefs). I make a consciousness effort to never use them. My self dialogue is always what I think I know and what I don't know with the latter the dominant state.

Gassho
Doshin
Stlah

[Ryumon]

I don’t believe in anything. But I’ve been doing this for 30 years...

Gassho,

Kirk

Sat

[Getchi]

If it helps, my first teacher fled from Burma (Myanmar) and was a respected teacher in the "Forest Tradition" of Nth.Thai. He always told me htere is nothing except having faith in Buddhas good works, and my own practicing of samadhi, sila and prajna as one movement and no seperation between what I think im thinking and whats actually being thought by my own mind. Bit confusing, but over the years ive met ppl who believe absolutly the buddhist hells and spirits exist, and those who see no reason to spend time worrying over appearance/non-appearance of the supermundane.

All i know is that Jundo allowed me to see that cats and cows exist, even though devas and devils were what I originally thought id find. Eventually, the same path offers itself to you again, at that point ask yourself the question again, and listen to what is behind that voice?


TLDR; since ther eis no limit to our imagination except for thinking of things that never existed even in our mind, then we should remember that "belief" is inherited from someone else, usuallu someone we love very much, and maybe focus more on the physical aspect of grinding-bones Zen. Maybe try looking into PureLand belief first, see how big that field is!


Good Luck.

Gassho,
Geoff.

SatToday
LaH.

[Byrne]

I’ve found that what I understand is more important than what I believe. I’ve also found that cultivating helpful beliefs and discarding unhelpful beliefs as they are revealed to you is a much more practical approach than obsessing over what is objectively true and ultimately unprovable.

Buddhism is for everybody. Everyone is invited to listen to the Dharma and find use for it. All kinds of people who believe all kinds of things.

Gassho

Say Today

[Ryudo]

Thank you all.

Gassho
SatToday

[Shinshou]

I’ve found that what I understand is more important than what I believe. I’ve also found that cultivating helpful beliefs and discarding unhelpful beliefs as they are revealed to you is a much more practical approach than obsessing over what is objectively true and ultimately unprovable.

I think that's pretty typical of Westerners, and is certainly typical of me. However, I'm beginning to flirt with the idea that there's a difference between belief and faith. I think that belief is a mental experience, whereas faith involves something deeper - an amount of trust. When Jundo says we should sit with the knowledge that there is no other place to be, nothing else to do, that shikantaza is a complete act - that goes beyond belief. There's a trust that needs to be present. To me, that's faith. I don't just believe in the process, I trust it.

Shinshou (Dan)
Sat Today

[Byrne]

I think that's pretty typical of Westerners, and is certainly typical of me. However, I'm beginning to flirt with the idea that there's a difference between belief and faith. I think that belief is a mental experience, whereas faith involves something deeper - an amount of trust. When Jundo says we should sit with the knowledge that there is no other place to be, nothing else to do, that shikantaza is a complete act - that goes beyond belief. There's a trust that needs to be present. To me, that's faith. I don't just believe in the process, I trust it.

Shinshou (Dan)
Sat Today

I'm inclined to agree with that view. I've heard the word entrust sometimes used as a synonym for faith. Not the same thing as blind faith, which many people assume the word faith means. Westerners have cultivated quite an obnoxious tradition of reading religious texts as if they were legal documents. I don't think that's necessarily a great approach to approaching spiritual matters which are meant to transcend temporal limitations. But spirituality has a way of moving through time, place, language, and culture in so many unexpected ways. We have to respect and acknowledge that as we approach our own doubts and understandings concerning our own practice.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Jundo]

I'm inclined to agree with that view. I've heard the word entrust sometimes used as a synonym for faith. Not the same thing as blind faith, which many people assume the word faith means. Westerners have cultivated quite an obnoxious tradition of reading religious texts as if they were legal documents. I don't think that's necessarily a great approach to approaching spiritual matters which are meant to transcend temporal limitations. But spirituality has a way of moving through time, place, language, and culture in so many unexpected ways. We have to respect and acknowledge that as we approach our own doubts and understandings concerning our own practice.

Gassho

Sat Today

But we should also recognize our history, and not discount scholarship. There is nothing about knowing the complete story of how our texts developed that robs them of their richness.

For example, in answer to some Buddhist folks on facebook who said my proposal to sometimes call the Buddha "She" or "They" is "changing the facts" and that one should not "change the Buddha," I wrote the following.

The image and story of the Buddha has been "tweeked" numerous times, from day one. An excellent excellent book that I can recommend to you is "The Concept of the Buddha: Its Evolution from Early Buddhism to the Trikaya Theory." (http://dl4a.org/uploads/pdf/The%20co...e%20Buddha.pdf) Without a constant tweeking of the story of the Buddha, there would be no Mahayana Buddhism. That said, nothing about the possibility of also referring to Buddha as sometimes "She" or "They" discounts the thorough possibility of the "He." That can be 100% true too. Zen folks know how to think and feel about Buddha more ways than one, and we are more than "one track mind" people.

The Buddha, in a nutshell, became ever more idealized and fantastic in the descriptions his "His" aspects, then became two then three bodies of Buddha, with details of his birth and origin story added and expanded over time.

To know that the biography of the Buddha was created over time, embellished by religious authors and elaborated, does not take away in my heart from the teachings and symbolism contained in that story, and the wisdom and compassion it seeks to express.

Gassho, J
ST Lah

[Tai Do]

But we should also recognize our history, and not discount scholarship. There is nothing about knowing the complete story of how our texts developed that robs them of their richness.

Thank you, Jundo. As someone within the academic world, the scholar study of Buddhism is important to me. Indeed, my first contact with Buddhism and Zen was through a History of Philosophy book from David Cooper (“World Philosophies”), a book that I still use in my classes today.
And I also think that this study only enriches our comprehension and practice instead of disenchant it.
Gassho,
Mateus
Sat/LAH

[bayamo]

.... but also because I had converted (very quietly) to Judaism, on my own. This is actually a trend in Judaism, of Jews who also practice Buddhism, but it's complicated. I digress.

gassho
kim
st lh

I actually worked with three people who fall into this category back when I lived in the States, each one practicing the respective faiths to varying degrees.
#sattoday

[Gero]

Well, seems I am an oddity around here, because I BELIEVE.

Okay, I do not exactly expect that when I praise Kannon that he/she will nod all her 11 heads or wave any of her 1000 arms in my way ... but I truly and sincerely believe that I am very far away from a point where I can actually *understand* things, so believing is all I have got.

Why has believing more relevance to me than understanding?
The way I understand (ouch, no pun intended ... better: 'how I think I understand') the working of the five skandhas, there is no way for anyone (at least not Buddhism noobs like me) to get straight from pure perception to understanding ... everytime there are discriminations and mental formations involved. Thus I can never be sure how much of what I think I "understand" I actually just conceptualize based on my already existing understanding of the world. So I can never be certain that my understanding of the world is really based on objective facts. In the end I have to chose what I take for facts and what I attribute to wishful thinking. That choice is what one might call "belief". So yes I am truly a believer, not an understander ... I guess.


Gassho
Gero (sat & lah)

[Koki]

Very good discussion thread! Thank you for sharing!

[Jundo]

The way I understand (ouch, no pun intended ... better: 'how I think I understand') the working of the five skandhas, there is no way for anyone (at least not Buddhism noobs like me) to get straight from pure perception to understanding ... everytime there are discriminations and mental formations involved. Thus I can never be sure how much of what I think I "understand" I actually just conceptualize based on my already existing understanding of the world. So I can never be certain that my understanding of the world is really based on objective facts. In the end I have to chose what I take for facts and what I attribute to wishful thinking. That choice is what one might call "belief". So yes I am truly a believer, not an understander ... I guess.

This is a "proof is in the pudding" Practice, in which we trust until we taste for oneself.

However, it can also be easy to miss because right in front of our eyes all along. It is sometimes said that it is like the eye looking for the eye, or maybe looking for the eye glasses perched right on our nose.

I am reminded of a joke somewhere about a man who is born and, all his life, he is looking for life. He is a teenager, then married with kids, all the ups and down, then old. On his death bed, he is still looking ... all his life. Looking for "Buddha" or "Kannon" is much like that.

For me, "Kannon" is alive every time our human hands and eyes become two of her hands and eyes and act with compassion.

XVII - Whattsa Who'sa Bodhisattva? - Avalokiteshvara (Kannon)

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?17227-Whattsa-Who-sa-Bodhisattva-%28A-Sit-a-Long-Series%29&p=248704&viewfull=1#post248704

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Sekiyuu]

It's very important to me, for whatever reason, to treat Buddhism as a non-religious secular practice. Our leaders are "teachers" and not "priests" (sorry). We have "sanghas" and not "congregations". There is "practice" and not "liturgy". I know it's all just semantics that don't really matter when you know what is truly being talked about, but these are terms that have very specific meanings in general society. Most of the people I have ever known, who would benefit the most from Buddhist practice, would never show a single sign of interest if they thought it was definitely, beyond any doubt, a religion.

A religion has very specific characteristics: belief in supernatural beings, rules which must be followed unquestioningly, punishments for going against those rules, and rituals which must be performed to appease or communicate with supernatural beings. A more nuanced and open definition of religion is, frankly, not what anyone I've ever met would think of first. It is simply unhelpful to associate Buddhism with these things.

I also don't think "belief" and "faith" are very useful words in Buddhist practice. My definition of "dharma" has changed over time from being "wisdom" to the more literal translation of "law". It feels like gravity: something that's happening whether we believe in it or not, whether we understand it or not. It's not something I think you can have "faith" or "belief" in. Maybe I'm wrong here though, am I just being dogmatic?

I truly and sincerely believe that I am very far away from a point where I can actually *understand* things, so believing is all I have got.

This is a very healthy perspective, and the only way I could ever understand Buddhism as a "faith" or "belief".

For me, "Kannon" is alive every time our human hands and eyes become two of her hands and eyes and act with compassion.

This is so, so much cooler than believing Kannon's just some magical thousand-limbed god up in the sky, don't you think?


Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today