Love your own misery?

[CinnamonGal]

Re: Love your own misery?

Bob,

Interesting comparison.

I have never been clinically depresed, lost a friend to depression. I believe in lovemaking although there is this merging with the other sensation at some point, one is acutely aware what is going on with one's own body and mind and (hopefully) picks up the signals from the partner. This is no time for playing mindgames (or else it will be a lousy sex :shock: ), one has to be completely present, the mind where the body is. I believe it is somewhat different with depression. I am not sure what opening one's heart to depression could be like. Getting more depressed? Can one find the way out then?

Can someone recommend a book on - no, not on love making :lol: - but on depression, for non-professionals, that would help to understand what exactly happens in one's brain etc and how one can be of support to someone, the first signs of depression, etc. Maybe a good webpage?
Thanks in advance!

Gassho,

Irina

great story, jundo

i think the ego suspects that between birth and death there is a big hole, and it's task is to fill it up with anything, as long as it isn't empty, since that is terrifying to ego -- people with good coping mechanisms fill it up with career, family, etc. -- those with not so good coping, fill it up with drama, misery, etc. -- of course, these are the same people on different days -- but from another point of view, i suspect it doesn't matter what it's filled with, is it so necessary to always keep it full? -- i think zazen, and other things, is like a time of not cramming it so full

interesting to compare depression with,say, making love -- both take all of you, but in a different way -- depression is total "self" involvement, draining you of all your energy, wearing you out, you're withdrawn into your own misery, unable to be there for others -- sex, on a good day, is, as they say, the "little death", you are, for once, gone, merged with the "other", and once you've come back to earth, renewed

and so it also is seeing the grand canyon, or a beautiful flower, or music -- so maybe the equation is: gone = joy, self-involvement = suffering?

i suppose its possible to open your heart, to be more open to, depression, as you would to these other states, and maybe that would then be joyful? -- as thaddeus golas pointed out, its not the "object" of awareness thats actually determining our "inner" state, its our reaction, our openness or closing to the "object", that feels "positive", or "negative"

gassho, bob

[disastermouse]

Re: Love your own misery?

Bob,
I am not sure what opening one's heart to depression could be like. Getting more depressed? Can one find the way out then?

How has resistance worked out? In my experience, it doesn't work at all.

It's a tenet of Buddhism that suffering depends on causes and conditions and that by eliminating the causes and conditions, one can extinguish suffering. Saying 'No' to depression does nothing to address it's causes or conditions. You can say 'yes' to the weed even as you pull it out of the ground. Actually, I think you sort of have to acknowledge the reality of your situation in order to change it in any meaningful way. Also, it may be that the only thing that must change about the situation is your attitude toward it.

Saying 'no' to reality is saying 'no' to the only time and place where anything can effectively be changed.

IMHO, YMMV.

[CinnamonGal]

Re: Love your own misery?

Hi disastermouse,

I did not mean to suggest resistance or saying NO would be the way to go rather wondered if someone cleanically deprerssed could actually make a CHOICE of accepting one's depression or not. As I said, I know little of depression but last time I tried to speak to the depressed friend it seemed to me we were going in circles so after a while I just gave up.

What I wonder is if someone depressed is actually capable of self-observation to be able to catch onelsef when one gets this choice or saying Yes or No to anything. Doesn't it require some clarity of the mind? Once the chemical balance is off it cannot be easy to make those choices if your think you are in a black hole or something like this. :shock:

Gassho,

Irina

[John]

Re: Love your own misery?

Hi Irina,

I haven't read the following book but have read others by the same authors and it looks like it might be interesting:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mindful-Way-Thr ... s_ir_all_1

Gassho,
John

[roky]

Re: Love your own misery?

cinnamon - sorry about your friend, may he/she be well -- as a former therapist and clinic director, i also lost a few folks -- can't say why one person does it,and another doesn't (it definitely doesn't have to do with the "amount" of misery) -- although i did notice that for many, there was an incredibly childish view of what "death" is -- like another state of "alive", where you are just taking a nappy or something

it sounds like you tried, in your own way, to help -- loving-kindness, metta, is maybe the only real thing we have -- intention is the thing, very powerful -- no guarantee on the outcome, however -- its like sitting zazen, expecting something to happen --

understandably, therapists see many folks like your friend -- inevitably, they get burnt out, and lose someone after a bad session -- then they get into "did i say the wrong thing?", and start beating on themselves -- soon, they have to leave the work behind, and everyone loses -- they forget that in metta, there is no "i" and "other", and that the practice begins with oneself -- that it is loving, and letting go, not loving and controlling, as in, "you were supposed to stay alive", "i was supposed to save you"

it seems like pushing too hard for any specific outcome(there i go, back to the love-making reference again!) screws everything up :roll:

bob

[paivi]

Re: Love your own misery?

In a clinical depression the pain in one's mind is so acute and overwhelming, and no glimpses of hope can be detected, that death seems to be the only option, the only way out of the suffering. It has nothing to do with not understanding the finality of death. It has everything to do with ending the suffering.

Julia Kristeva has written a book about depression (Soleil noir, dépression et mélancholie)- yes it's called Black Sun in English - in the book she describes also what depression does to communication. Your words don't reach your clinically depressed friend... You can't really communicate with a clinically depressed person. But metta, a cup of tea and some music by George Harrison + a good cry together might be nice.

[chessie]

Re: Love your own misery?

Someone close to me was diagnosed at the age of 17 or so with depression, after having their Mother succumb to MS and father succomb to Alzheimers and be put in a nursing home. This person told me that the psychiatrist at that time said that a depressed person will NOT even have any awareness that they are depressed. They just live through the days as the days come. This statement seemed peculiar to me at the time, and almost makes sense, but maybe not quite? I was in no position to question it further, so maybe someone here knows better if a depressed person actually knows if they are or not? If that makes any sense? Gassho, Ann

[roky]

Re: Love your own misery?

diagnosis jargon, equating the organ the brain with mind, scientific terms like "chemical imbalance", are attempts to exert control over an area that is by nature a mystery: consciousness -- one result of this type of shorthand, is a failure to really see the person in front of you, but to instead think you know what they are about -- dangerous in general, but particularly so for a therapist -- i'm more comfortable with not knowing, and seeing where that goes -- and fortunately, conceptual understanding is not a requirement for healing

steve hagen discusses the "problem of "this is that"" -- in order to communicate, we use phrases like "this is a laptop" -- actually, "this" can never = "that", it can only = "this" -- "this is that" is harmful in that it creates the illusion that you know what "this" is -- you don't, at least not conceptually -- it is a useful shorthand, but not reality

if i'm rebuilding an engine, i use a manual -- but consciousness, no -- that is what the zazen is for

actually, i did have a favorite diagnosis -- i called it "loss of tribe" -- for some reason, the insurance companies wouldn't accept it :wink:

gassho, bob

[Alberto]

Re: Love your own misery?

Roky said

i think the ego suspects that between birth and death there is a big hole, and it's task is to fill it up with anything, as long as it isn't empty, since that is terrifying to ego -- people with good coping mechanisms fill it up with career, family, etc. -- those with not so good coping, fill it up with drama, misery, etc. -- of course, these are the same people on different days -- but from another point of view, i suspect it doesn't matter what it's filled with, is it so necessary to always keep it full? -- i think zazen, and other things, is like a time of not cramming it so full

I agree with that. Misery, anger, any of that stuff that reinforces the illusion of an ego helps us sustain the sense of importance in this little representation. Anything goes, as long as it's about me

[Dojin]

Re: Love your own misery?

DSM-IV-TR Criteria

Major Depressive Episode
Five (or more) of the following symptoms have A. been present during the same 2-week period and represent a change from
previous functioning; at least one of the symptoms is either (1) depressed mood or (2) loss of interest or pleasure. Note: Do not
include symptoms that are clearly due to a general medical condition, or mood-incongruent delusions or hallucinations.
(1) Depressed mood most of the day, as indicated by either subjective report (e.g., feels sad or empty) or observation made by
others (e.g., appears tearful). Note: In children and adolescents, can be irritable mood.
(2) Markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day (as indicated by
either subjective account or observation made by others).
(3) Significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain (e.g., a change of more than 5% of body weight in a month), or
decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day. Note: In children, consider failure to make expected weight gains.
(4) Insomnia or hypersomnia nearly every day.
(5) Psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day (observable by others, not merely subjective feelings of restlessness
or being slowed down).
(6) Fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day.
(7) Feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt (which may be delusional) nearly every day (not merely self reproach
or guilt about being sick).
(8) Diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every day (either by subjective account or as observed
by others).
(9) Recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), recurrent suicidal ideation without a specifi c plan, or a suicide attempt
or a specifi c plan for committing suicide.
B. The symptoms do not meet criteria for a mixed episode.
C. The symptoms cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of
functioning.
D. The symptoms are not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general
medical condition (e.g., hypothyroidism).
The symptoms are not better accounted for by E. bereavement, i.e., after the loss of a loved one, the symptoms persist for longer
than 2 months or are characterized by marked functional impairment, morbid preoccupation with worthlessness, suicidal ideation,
psychotic symptoms, or psychomotor retardation.

this is the DSM 4 definition of Major depression.

i have actually got to work with people suffering from such mental disorders in the mental hospital.
one thing i could actually say for sure, is that during the episode of depression ( and i mean major- severe ) the person is not even willing to get treatment all they want is to be left alone and lie in bed doing nothing. not even talk...

it is a bit different from the regular depression most people think of.

hope that helps. if you want some information on this i could send you a copy of books in pdf format on psychiatry.

Gassho
Daniel

[chessie]

Re: Love your own misery?

Thank you immensely for this. I've done some reading, but this registers more clearly for me than anything else I've read. I feel like now I finally have a guide to recognize when a new episode has come to the front with my close one. I've only seen 2, maybe 3 episodes, over decades, but in the back of my head I think i always fear another one pending... Gassho, Ann

[Dojin]

Re: Love your own misery?

you are more than welcome

[CinnamonGal]

Re: Love your own misery?

John: thanks for the book tip. I will see if I find it in a library.

Bob:

not loving and controlling, as in, "you were supposed to stay alive", "i was supposed to save you"

very true, trying to remember it now, when loving to not strive to control and to be able to let go;

honestly I don't think I tried enough, I KNOW I did not but where I was at the moment and who I was then could not possibly grasp what was going on. I hope I'd act with more compassion and less ego-centrism today but this remains to see.

Daniel, thanks a bunch!

Gassho,

Irina

[Stephanie]

Re: Love your own misery?

I absolutely love wallowing in misery sometimes. There's something about it that can be decadent and lush. And amusing. And yeah, it does produce a lot of good music, doesn't it? 8) But I think the problem is... while I can actually enjoy the early stages of an emotionally dark period, there is a point where it goes from being fascinating and intense to being deeply miserable. And usually when it's gone that far it's hard to recover. When you play a game with your own mind to see how dark it can get, how absolutely and fully you can enter into the nightmare, you can get in some pretty nasty trouble. It makes me think of a quote from Chogyam Trungpa that I recently posted to my blog:

This mind is our working basis for the practice of meditation and the development of awareness. But mind is something more than the process of confirming self by the dualistic lingering on the other. Mind also includes what are known as emotions, which are the highlights of mental states. Mind cannot exist without emotions. Daydreaming and discursive thoughts are not enough. Those alone would be too boring. The dualistic trick would wear too thin. So we tend to create waves of emotion which go up and down: passion, aggression, ignorance, pride--all kinds of emotions. In the beginning we create them deliberately, as a game of trying to prove to ourselves that we exist. But eventually the game becomes a hassle; it becomes more than a game and forces us to challenge ourselves more than we intended. It is like a hunter who, for the sport of practicing his shooting, decides to shoot one leg of a deer at a time. But the deer runs very fast, and it appears it might get away altogether. This becomes a total challenge to the hunter, who rushes after the deer, now trying to kill it completely, to shoot it in the heart. So the hunter has been challenged and feels defeated by his own game.

Emotions are like that. They are not a requirement for survival; they are a game we developed that went wrong at some point--it went sour. In the face of this predicament we feel terribly frustrated and absolutely helpless... So we have created a world that is bittersweet. Things are amusing but, at the same time, not so amusing. Sometimes things seem terribly funny but, on the other hand, terribly sad. Life has the quality of a game of ours that has trapped us. The setup of mind has created the whole thing. We might complain about the government or the economy of the country or the prime rate of interest, but those factors are secondary. The root of the problem... is mind.

Like Trungpa says, we often conjure our own emotions as a way to prove to ourselves we exist. We find this enjoyable on some level and so we keep doing it. But then the game goes sour on us, and at that point, it's too late to say, "Okay, maybe I shouldn't have played this game." We're in too deep already, and everything is dark and black as hell, and we can't see how we got where we are from where we started. Some people call the moment you realize this a "come to Jesus" moment. Perhaps here it would be more appropriate to call it a "come to Buddha" moment :lol: