Showdown: Dogen vs. Gotama

[Dainin]

Re: Showdown: Dogen vs. Gotama

Will,

Enough with the fortune cookies. Can you speak/write in a way that doesn't sound like Mr. Miagi?

Now let me be as crystal clear as I can: there are some things I know. These things have been empirically tested and retested from my own life experience. You, nor Jundo (sorry Jundo!), nor Dogen, nor Gotama, nor my mother, nor anybody else can tell me that I don't know what I know. However, I will be the first, second, third,... and last person to say that there are many, MANY things I do not know. I say, without a nanosecond of hesitation, that there are plenty more things I do not know than what I know. However, again, you are not in a position at this point to tell me what I do not know (except things about you and your life). Perhaps, if we knew each other better, I'd welcome and seek out your views and advice about my life. However, since that is not the case, you're presumptions about me and about what I know and do not know are not welcome. In other words, try to fight the urge to offer me any fortune cookie-cutter advice unless I request it from you. Thanks.

And by the way, I find your "Have Fun" to be condescending.

[Jundo]

Re: Showdown: Dogen vs. Gotama

Hey Keith,

Not much really to say here that you don't already know, I think.

Bottom line maybe: You have to find your own Buddha, Dogen ... Keith too.

I don't really know who any of those folks were or are. Everytime I pick up book on Buddha by a different author or translator, I encounter a new flavor of Buddha. Same with Dogen. I can read the same passage of the same chapter of Dogen on Tuesday and Wednesday and get two very different feelings from it. Heck, I don't even really know the ins and outs of who my own mother was, or my wife or my kid ... they are all complicated, multi-faceted people, constantly changing.

I don't even know 100% who I am, cause my life changes from morning to night, day in day out. There are 10,001 "Jundos" (or "James's" as it says on my drivers license).

All I can tell you is that the "Dogen" and the "Buddha" I found for my life sure works well in my life. I think it will too for some other folks (not everyone for sure) with similar inclinations, thus I have the guts to try to teach something. I am pretty sure that the "Dogen" and "Buddha" that I have found in my own life are, at their core, what the historical "Dogen" and "Buddha" were preaching about. (I hope Mr. Wallis feels the same about his Buddha). I think so.

But ultimately, I don't really care because of another old fortune cookie from Master Lin Chi:

If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him ... same for Dogen.

Here is how I interpret that (again, I don't know what Lin Chi really meant, or who Lin Chi was, so I just tell you what I think he meant):

To me it means this: I like the "Buddha" and "Dogen" that I have encountered in my life so much that, should it turn out that the "real" "Buddha" and "Dogen" were actually very different (though I don't think they were) ... I will keep the one's I've got anyway! :lol:

Anyway, Keith ... nothing I can say on any of these issues is worth a pile of dog poop.

You have to find your own Buddha and Dogen and Keith.

Gassho, 1 of 10,001 Jundos

[Dainin]

Re: Showdown: Dogen vs. Gotama

Thank you, Jundo. I appreciate this very, very much. Now I can, in good faith, say that I agree with this post!

Gassho,
Keith

[Jundo]

Re: Showdown: Dogen vs. Gotama

I just deleted a post. First time in the 1 1/2 year history of this forum I have ever done that.*

This stops now, please. We are all in this little rowboat together. The only rule around here, besides the one about Zazen, is to be kind to each other. Folks can say what they want and need to say, but in constructive ways.

Plus, we are all a*holes to somebody.

Gassho, Jundo the Gatekeeper

PS- *Except for one post long ago with a really bad dirty joke. Might have left it if it had been funny.

[Dainin]

Re: Showdown: Dogen vs. Gotama

I just deleted a post. First time in the 1 1/2 year history of this forum I have ever done that.*

And I missed it?? Damn! :wink: It must have been bad if Jundo deleted it. :|

Peace,
Keith

[chicanobudista]

Re: Showdown: Dogen vs. Gotama

Plus, we are all a*holes to somebody.

....and you know that old joke about the time the a**hole went on strike. :mrgreen:

[Dojin]

Re: Showdown: Dogen vs. Gotama

If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him ... same for Dogen.

for me it always looked like maybe if you meet the Buddha you will listen to him without thinking much about what is said.
and as smart and true as his words might be it isn't always true for you, and it might hold you back from actually learning and experiencing things on your own.

my favorite quote of the Buddha would be...

" Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if i have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense "

which might explain my interpretation of killing a Buddha.

[Dainin]

Re: Showdown: Dogen vs. Gotama

My understanding of Lin Chi's teaching ("If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him") is that he's saying not to get too attached to concepts. I believe Buddha can be read as our limited concepts of reality. And if we get overly attached to our own concepts, no matter what they are, we cease to be open to the unfolding moment, in whatever way it unfolds.

Of course, I can be full of it (as I often am).

L'Chaim,
Keith

[CharlesC]

Re: Showdown: Dogen vs. Gotama

.

[Dainin]

Re: Showdown: Dogen vs. Gotama

Hi Charles,

Oneness, living in the present moment, mindfulness, feeling compassion for everyone around me, etc, etc. I am trying to escape living via fantasies. I don't want to just swap in another set of fantasies of what I should be like.

Excellent point! I think Zen, among other teachings/traditions, does set these "standards" that can lead one to go deeper into fantasy. I think this can manifest itself, for example, in one taking on all the surface trappings of what a "Zen guy/girl" should dress, act, speak, eat (etc.) like. It can also put a great deal of stress on one. "Oh man, I'm not living in the moment, feeling compassion for everyone, etc. I suck."

The "gold standard" for me is asking, "Does this work for me? Do I feel more balanced, peaceful, compassionate than before I took up this practice?" If so, than I think it's a good practice. But, I also don't think it's for everyone (and I'm certainly not suggesting it's not for you), and that is perfectly okay. Perhaps some people stay with it out of some guilt or fear of failure, or something. Proper guidance from good teachers and friends can help a lot, but in the end, it's up the individual to determine whether its a good practice for him/her or not.

Thanks,
Keith

[Jundo]

Re: Showdown: Dogen vs. Gotama

Hi Charles,

Oneness, living in the present moment, mindfulness, feeling compassion for everyone around me, etc, etc. I am trying to escape living via fantasies. I don't want to just swap in another set of fantasies of what I should be like.

Excellent point! I think Zen, among other teachings/traditions, does set these "standards" that can lead one to go deeper into fantasy. I think this can manifest itself, for example, in one taking on all the surface trappings of what a "Zen guy/girl" should dress, act, speak, eat (etc.) like. It can also put a great deal of stress on one. "Oh man, I'm not living in the moment, feeling compassion for everyone, etc. I suck."

The "gold standard" for me is asking, "Does this work for me? Do I feel more balanced, peaceful, compassionate than before I took up this practice?" If so, than I think it's a good practice. But, I also don't think it's for everyone (and I'm certainly not suggesting it's not for you), and that is perfectly okay. Perhaps some people stay with it out of some guilt or fear of failure, or something. Proper guidance from good teachers and friends can help a lot, but in the end, it's up the individual to determine whether its a good practice for him/her or not.

Thanks,
Keith

I so much agree. Of course. you have to have some blind trust in the Practice at the start, because it may take awhile to really notice the effects (even though we are seeking nothing from this practice, it does have good effects ... although they often creep up on us slowly and almost imperceptibly).

And also, some folks come to it, and go away from it, a few times ... one of the best ways to realize the benefits of the practice is to stop for awhile (Keith, I think that describes you, me and and bunch of us). I found, after stopping for a time, that I missed the balance and perspective it provided.

But otherwise, yes, if it doesn't work for someone then it just doesn't. Maybe try Scientology instead? 8)

Oh, and yes, don't get caught up in some idealized fiction about how you think a "Zen Guy" should talk, walk, dress, etc. every day of his/her life. As I like to say, there are moments in which we are in the present moment, and there are moments when we are anything but. I think that this practice is more about being "one" with this crazy universe and with the human condition (not two things by the way). Most books on the Buddha and the great Zen masters completely fail to present these personalities as 3-dimensional people. I don't like great Teachers and Buddhas who are presented as statues and robots. I wrote this in the "Famous" Buddha-bot "sit-a-long" (the recording is now gone) ...

Buddha-bot

The hyper-idealized, super-human images of the Buddha and Ancestors contained in the Sutras and other Buddhist storybooks have (in many ways) done Buddhism a great disservice. I think. People writing such religious legends dip the hero in gold, place him on a platform, and omit the humanity and rough edges (give me the imperfect Greek or Norse Gods over that!) .

Surely, if we were to travel back in time to meet the actual Buddha and others, we'd find people who were people ...

... wondrous, spiritual, good, wise people perhaps, but people nonetheless. Not statues, not gods, not all-perfect saints. Assuming that even the best of human beings will have a few pimples, bad habits, fears, prejudices and all scattered imperfections, would they not too? Should we, thus, be disappointed at who we'd find?

No! In fact, it gives me hope: For so many Buddhist Practitioners misunderstand the point as the attainment of unreal, extreme, otherworldly, emotionally removed, bizarre states. No wonder some folks talk of countless lives required to achieve such fantastic goals. Instead, our Buddhist practices and Buddhist philosophy have survived for millenia simply because real people find real benefits in this world, in ordinary life.

Our Zen practice is for our living as truly "human" human beings ... not unerring saints, not robots, not machines.


Beware of the BUDDHABOTS!

Very well said and described, Keith.

Gassho, Jundo

[AlanLa]

Re: Showdown: Dogen vs. Gotama

If we are studying/following Dogen's improvements/refinements of what Buddha taught, then why isn't this called Dogenism? (This is a rhetorical question not deserving of a response. The name is NOT important.)

I have always loved that saying "If you see Buddha on the road, kill him." Can you imagine Christians saying "If you see Jesus on the road, crucify him"? Lots wrong with that last statement, I know, apples and oranges. But it is an interesting contrast, no?

[lora]

Re: Showdown: Dogen vs. Gotama

Hi, Everyone,

I like the term "Buddhabot".

In the Tibetan lineage that I studied with for a while, I saw a lot of that. What's worse, is that I tried to be that! Would'nt say "sh** if my mouth was full of it".

I'm not condeming them, people need to do what they need to do, and I met a lot of very good people. It's just that it did'nt feel right for me, I felt insincere in my practice both on and off the mat. I learned a whole lot from them and I'm grateful for that.

Not that there's a "me" or a "them".

Many Blessings,
Lora

[Shohei]

Re: Showdown: Dogen vs. Gotama

This has been another of many very good threads imo. Thanks to all of the above for their contributions! Anything i would have said is already above!

Gassho
Dirk

[paige]

Re: Showdown: Dogen vs. Gotama

Lin Chi was probably making a reference to the Susthitamati-pariprccha sutra - translated into English as "How to Kill with the Sword of Wisdom" in A Treasury of Mahayana Sutras. In it the god Well-Abiding Mind asks Manjushri how to cultivate pure conduct. Manjushri responds by drawing his sword and charging at the Buddha. Ha ha, what a kidder, that guy!

That was quite a good article, but I kept thinking that someone could have written pretty much the same experience from the opposite direction. Y'know: "I used to be a solitary iconoclast, but now that I've gotten over my big ego, I quite enjoy bowing and dressing up in robes and chanting in Japanese."

My 4 year old niece has a much-loved book about a little hermit crab. He starts off naked and alone, but quickly acquires a lovely seashell home, camouflage, decoration and companions. Of course, at the end he outgrows his shell again and has to move on. I think it's very healthy to realise that 'Zen' doesn't fit anymore into the conceptual framework we've built around it. So we put it in a bigger box! Maybe if we can keep on growing up, and don't get stuck, we can graduate to a shell as big as the entire ocean.

Or, as Chan Master Sheng Yen put it: Bodhi is known only to those who have determined to follow the path of bodhi. As one follows this path, one's practice will deepen, and the path will widen and widen until the path disappears. (Song of Mind, p140)