Universal self truly universal?

[Seibu]

Hi all,

I've been reading Opening the Hand of Thought and currently I'm reading the chapter Zazen and the True Self. The more I dig into this chapter the more I get the feeling that the notion of universal self is both universal and not universal at all. I will try to explain myself step by step and as clearly as possible. Uchiyama writes that "you give birth to, live out, and die together with your world." He explains this idea clearly by giving examples along the lines of "if a sound is made but there are no ears to receive the vibrations in the air there is no sound." Ok, so far so good this makes sense to me. I mean if a person was born deaf and is never be able to obtain the capacity to hear then the reality of that person is a soundless reality semantically speaking.

Things start to get a bit blurry when the notion of the universal self comes into play. To me, the word universal implies that it is a universal thing: it is real/true to us all or generally accepted as such. When I put my hand in the fire and it hurts is a unversal fact among mammals for example. Suddenly, Uchiyama hits me with the enlightenment of the Buddha: " I [Shakyamuni] attained the way simultaneously with the whole world and all sentient beings. Everything--mountains, rivers, trees, grass--attained buddhahood." Now, without the context provided I could make sense of this intellectually. Everything attained Buddhahood because it is Shakyamuni's reality, and, as Uchiyama said, we are born, live out, and die with our world. This makes sense from a non-buddhist point of view as well: from a nurture perspective our personalities and small I are influenced by the experiences we go through in life and by a myriad other things.

Based on this, from a semantic point of view, I find the wording of universal self a bit misleading because it is universal and yet it is not universal at all. Why? The universal aspect is found in the idea that Uchiyama phrased much more eleganty than I could: "Zazen as true Mahayana teaching is always the whole self just truly being the whole self, life truly being life." This seems to be universal whether a person realizes this or not. But at the same time it is not unversal at all because as long as there are people who don't realize this, their reality must be a different experience aside from the countless personal experiences/personality etc., and when they die, their world dies with them too...without having experienced the universal self. So the universal self can only be truly universal once everybody realizes this...otherwise it simply isn't universal in the generally accepted sense of the word. I feel that an important link is missing.

Gassho,
Jack
Sattoday/lah

[Jakuden]

Hi all,

The more I dig into this chapter the more I get the feeling that the notion of universal self is both universal and not universal at all.

This and several other statements you make indicate that you do sense the truth even as you question Uchiyama's wording. We always get hung up on the semantics because whatever word we use, "universal," "empty," "ultimate," "absolute," always falls short. Both the perpetual silence of the deaf person and the sound of the bell to a hearing person are included in the Universal, neither can be individual or separate from the other. Not everyone is awake to all possible viewpoints or realities, but that does not make them less than a buddha. Not one, not two

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Jishin]

Hi,

I have been enjoying photography lately and asked my wife and 2 kids to stand still so I could take a picture at the entrance of Carlsbad Caverns in New Mexico. My 9 year old is a clown and would not sit still. After a “hey, cut the crap!” from me he settled down and I got the picture. I don’t think I will quit my day job to be a photographer. Nowadays we have a good time with that phrase and it evokes a lot of chuckles. It kind of sounds like the zenny phrase “Chop wood carry water.” It gets the job done.

BT9A5739.jpg

Hope this helps.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Horin]

" I [Shakyamuni] attained the way simultaneously with the whole world and all sentient beings. Everything--mountains, rivers, trees, grass--attained buddhahood." Now, without the context provided I could make sense of this intellectually. Everything attained Buddhahood because it is Shakyamuni's reality, and, as Uchiyama said, we are born, live out, and die with our world. This makes sense from a non-buddhist point of view as well: from a nurture perspective our personalities and small I are influenced by the experiences we go through in life and by a myriad other things.

Hi Jack,
i dont know if i understood you right.
Indeed, when e.g. in zazen all discriminations cease, and like Dogen said "body and mind drop away", theres just all what is. Not personal, no you and me. Every perception like (conceptual) thoughts of you and me appear like a cloud in the sky. Therefore the entire world becomes awaken - theres no you or me, not even the world left. Just sitting without someone that is sitting.

Gassho,
Ben


Stlah

[Rich]

It’s not that you don’t have Buddha nature or universal self or whatever you call it. It’s that you cover it with your thinking mind, your ego I. To try and understand it with thinking and reasoning is futile. Enjoy [emoji4]

Sat/lah


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Hi Jack,

First, these are teachings to understand in an experiential and poetic sense, and overly intellectual analysis can rob them, like the difference between analyzing swimming as a concept and actually jumping in and getting wet. It is not that a philosophical analysis of "wetness" is not nice or a little helpful, but it ain't getting wet.

However, I happen to be writing the manuscript of my new book today ("Zen of the Future!" ) which touches on some of this, so let me try.

- You see an apple tree and eat a delicious lovely sweet red apple. I am sorry to tell you, there is no "apple tree" or "apple" there without you (only, I assume, some atoms of a certain sugar and other chemical composition emitting photons of a certain wavelength, as I am not a total idealist who thinks that -nothing- is outside us). But there is no "sweet" without your tongue, no "red" without your eyes, no "delicious" or "lovely" without your experience and appraisal, and no "apple" or "tree" without your brain to interpret, isolate and label it all, then reach your hand out to grab one. So, no apple tree and sweet red apples without you (and, though you may not notice this, no "you" without sweet red apples and trees because you need the experience to live and feel your self identity too in return). We usually think that our "I" stops at the skin line and is only between the ears, but in Buddhism we see the whole feedback loop ... molecules, tongue, brain, hand, plus the Big Bang and all the atoms and other factors that went into your having a tongue, eye, brain and hand in the first place ... as one thing. Each and all is your wider "I" that reaches inside and out. Your "I" is actually inside and outside working together, and you (through your experience) actually create the universe at any level above bare molecules and chemical reactions and such. You make lovely red apples. Lovely red apples make "you."

- In a sense, all the universe, and each thing in it, is also another face or facet of your "I" just like your hair, your feet, your heart, your thoughts and feelings are all manifestations of your "I," likewise for stars and apple trees, mountains and rivers, fire. me and Jakuden and Jishin and Ben and Rich, the whole show because it all contributes and impacts directly and indirectly the above. Oh, you could live and breath without a hand or hair (I do!), but not without a heart ... well, you might live without your "mountain" but not your sun and earth. Like that, they are still all you.

- For that reason, we don't really "die" in all ways so long as there are still mountains and stars after this body (although this body and particular sense of "I" may be kaput), because that is just us and we are just them. Losing this body is, in a sense, thus no more than the universe losing some hair. (Which, by the way, tends to grow back).

- However, Uchiyama makes the point that we are also each living in "our own universe" too, because we each experience a unique vantage point, and are each a unique expression, of the whole show. If you go to a movie with me, we are each experiencing the same movie, but also both our own movie in watching it. So, one might say that our unique movie/universe ends when we do. As well, it will now be a very different universe, one the universe with Jack, one the universe without Jack, so we can say it is a totally different universe ... like Mona Lisa with the smile, Mona Lisa without the smile would be not the same painting at all.

- We also get a sense that everything in reality is so interconnected that, rather than just being separate pieces, everything flows into every other things, and fully contains every other things. For example, a beautiful vegetable soup is not just separate ingredients but, after cooking for hours, is all the flavors flowing into all the flavors. In addition, every spoonful can be tasted to fully contain the flavor of each other thing and to embody the whole soup. The whole soup is in every spoonful, delicious. Something like that.

You are not just Jack ... you are the universe in most radical sense, you are the Whole Soup, every carrot and pea, plus the tongue and brain that make it all delicious! You feel like just a "Jack," just a tiny pea, which you are but you are not only that. It is so whether people realize it or not, so our job as Bodhisattvas is to help folks taste the Whole Soup. As well, since sentient you are the Soup, and so is your tongue, we are a very, very strange Soup that has developed sentience and can taste itself! It is sometimes sweet but, alas, sometimes bitter.

Part of this is to be understood intellectually, but Zazen actually changes the parts of the brain that create those borders of "I" identity at skin line, and those borders soften or drop away, so that we actually can experience this more. At least, we can understand it all poetically too. We can taste our Whole Soupness.

Does that help?

Gassho, J

- PS - Do you know that you are at the center of the universe? It is true because, as a singularity which emerged from the Big Bang, every point of a singularity is its own center no matter how much it expands and, further, every point of the universe is as much "a" center as any other. My physicist buddy with whom I am writing another book says that is so. Also, don't get me started on how "big" and "small" in the universe is also how you look at it ... an ant is certainly less than an elephant or the moon, but don't tell that to the ant's wife.

STLah

[Seibu]

This and several other statements you make indicate that you do sense the truth even as you question Uchiyama's wording. We always get hung up on the semantics because whatever word we use, "universal," "empty," "ultimate," "absolute," always falls short. Both the perpetual silence of the deaf person and the sound of the bell to a hearing person are included in the Universal, neither can be individual or separate from the other. Not everyone is awake to all possible viewpoints or realities, but that does not make them less than a buddha. Not one, not two

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

Hi Jakuden, thank you for your reply. Everything you wrote here makes perfect sense, and I considered brining up the various linguistic descriptions of buddha nature, but I decided against it because the blurry part started where I attempted to integrate the personal self, that dies when we die, with the perspective of the buddha nature, something we can all experience through practice. I wholeheartedly understand and underscore that if someone doesn't know their buddha nature they are less than a buddha. Every living being has buddha nature.

Hi,

I have been enjoying photography lately and asked my wife and 2 kids to stand still so I could take a picture at the entrance of Carlsbad Caverns in New Mexico. My 9 year old is a clown and would not sit still. After a “hey, cut the crap!” from me he settled down and I got the picture. I don’t think I will quit my day job to be a photographer. Nowadays we have a good time with that phrase and it evokes a lot of chuckles. It kind of sounds like the zenny phrase “Chop wood carry water.” It gets the job done.


Hope this helps.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Hi Jishin, your reply is like a koan and it makes me want to reread it several times because I can go several ways with it. Thank you for sharing that beautiful picture: I also have a family and it means the world to me. Thank you.

It’s not that you don’t have Buddha nature or universal self or whatever you call it. It’s that you cover it with your thinking mind, your ego I. To try and understand it with thinking and reasoning is futile. Enjoy [emoji4]

Sat/lah


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Rich, thank you for your reply. This I definitely understand. This touches upon our practice and seeing the scenery of life as we practice, or as Jundo Roshi says: "even though the sky is clouded the blue sky is always there. The scenery is just the scenery.

Hi Jack,

First, these are teachings to understand in an experiential and poetic sense, and overly intellectual analysis can rob them, like the difference between analyzing swimming as a concept and actually jumping in and getting wet. It is not that a philosophical analysis of "wetness" is not nice or a little helpful, but it ain't getting wet.

However, I happen to be writing the manuscript of my new book today ("Zen of the Future!" ) which touches on some of this, so let me try.

- You see an apple tree and eat a delicious lovely sweet red apple. I am sorry to tell you, there is no "apple tree" or "apple" there without you (only, I assume, some atoms of a certain sugar and other chemical composition emitting photons of a certain wavelength, as I am not a total idealist who thinks that -nothing- is outside us). But there is no "sweet" without your tongue, no "red" without your eyes, no "delicious" or "lovely" without your experience and appraisal, and no "apple" or "tree" without your brain to interpret, isolate and label it all, then reach your hand out to grab one. So, no apple tree and sweet red apples without you (and, though you may not notice this, no "you" without sweet red apples and trees because you need the experience to live and feel your self identity too in return). We usually think that our "I" stops at the skin line and is only between the ears, but in Buddhism we see the whole feedback loop ... molecules, tongue, brain, hand, plus the Big Bang and all the atoms and other factors that went into your having a tongue, eye, brain and hand in the first place ... as one thing. Each and all is your wider "I" that reaches inside and out. Your "I" is actually inside and outside working together, and you (through your experience) actually create the universe at any level above bare molecules and chemical reactions and such. You make lovely red apples. Lovely red apples make "you."

- In a sense, all the universe, and each thing in it, is also another face or facet of your "I" just like your hair, your feet, your heart, your thoughts and feelings are all manifestations of your "I," likewise for stars and apple trees, mountains and rivers, fire. me and Jakuden and Jishin and Ben and Rich, the whole show because it all contributes and impacts directly and indirectly the above. Oh, you could live and breath without a hand or hair (I do!), but not without a heart ... well, you might live without your "mountain" but not your sun and earth. Like that, they are still all you.

- For that reason, we don't really "die" in all ways so long as there are still mountains and stars after this body (although this body and particular sense of "I" may be kaput), because that is just us and we are just them. Losing this body is, in a sense, thus no more than the universe losing some hair. (Which, by the way, tends to grow back).

- However, Uchiyama makes the point that we are also each living in "our own universe" too, because we each experience a unique vantage point, and are each a unique expression, of the whole show. If you go to a movie with me, we are each experiencing the same movie, but also both our own movie in watching it. So, one might say that our unique movie/universe ends when we do. As well, it will now be a very different universe, one the universe with Jack, one the universe without Jack, so we can say it is a totally different universe ... like Mona Lisa with the smile, Mona Lisa without the smile would be not the same painting at all.


- We also get a sense that everything in reality is so interconnected that, rather than just being separate pieces, everything flows into every other things, and fully contains every other things. For example, a beautiful vegetable soup is not just separate ingredients but, after cooking for hours, is all the flavors flowing into all the flavors. In addition, every spoonful can be tasted to fully contain the flavor of each other thing and to embody the whole soup. The whole soup is in every spoonful, delicious. Something like that.

You are not just Jack ... you are the universe in most radical sense, you are the Whole Soup, every carrot and pea, plus the tongue and brain that make it all delicious! You feel like just a "Jack," just a tiny pea, which you are but you are not only that. It is so whether people realize it or not, so our job as Bodhisattvas is to help folks taste the Whole Soup. As well, since sentient you are the Soup, and so is your tongue, we are a very, very strange Soup that has developed sentience and can taste itself! It is sometimes sweet but, alas, sometimes bitter.

Part of this is to be understood intellectually, but Zazen actually changes the parts of the brain that create those borders of "I" identity at skin line, and those borders soften or drop away, so that we actually can experience this more. At least, we can understand it all poetically too. We can taste our Whole Soupness.

Does that help?

Gassho, J

- PS - Do you know that you are at the center of the universe? It is true because, as a singularity which emerged from the Big Bang, every point of a singularity is its own center no matter how much it expands and, further, every point of the universe is as much "a" center as any other. My physicist buddy with whom I am writing another book says that is so. Also, don't get me started on how "big" and "small" in the universe is also how you look at it ... an ant is certainly less than an elephant or the moon, but don't tell that to the ant's wife.

STLah

Thank you Jundo for your elaborate reply. This resolves my confusion completely. Ever since I came to Treeleaf I have felt that your teachings resonate really well and integrate seamlessly with my own views. You combine current scientific insight, Buddhist teachings, and life, and synthesize them in such a way that it all makes perfect sense. Each time time you show me truth just as it is without trying to adhere to certain established truths that might contradict the experienced reality here on Earth.

- In a sense, all the universe, and each thing in it, is also another face or facet of your "I" just like your hair, your feet, your heart, your thoughts and feelings are all manifestations of your "I," likewise for stars and apple trees, mountains and rivers, fire. me and Jakuden and Jishin and Ben and Rich, the whole show because it all contributes and impacts directly and indirectly the above. Oh, you could live and breath without a hand or hair (I do!), but not without a heart ... well, you might live without your "mountain" but not your sun and earth. Like that, they are still all you.

- For that reason, we don't really "die" in all ways so long as there are still mountains and stars after this body (although this body and particular sense of "I" may be kaput), because that is just us and we are just them. Losing this body is, in a sense, thus no more than the universe losing some hair. (Which, by the way, tends to grow back).

- However, Uchiyama makes the point that we are also each living in "our own universe" too, because we each experience a unique vantage point, and are each a unique expression, of the whole show. If you go to a movie with me, we are each experiencing the same movie, but also both our own movie in watching it. So, one might say that our unique movie/universe ends when we do. As well, it will now be a very different universe, one the universe with Jack, one the universe without Jack, so we can say it is a totally different universe ... like Mona Lisa with the smile, Mona Lisa without the smile would be not the same painting at all.

Now I'm beginning to understand what Uchiyama is trying to tell me about the personal reality and the buddha nature.

- PS - Do you know that you are at the center of the universe? It is true because, as a singularity which emerged from the Big Bang, every point of a singularity is its own center no matter how much it expands and, further, every point of the universe is as much "a" center as any other. My physicist buddy with whom I am writing another book says that is so. Also, don't get me started on how "big" and "small" in the universe is also how you look at it ... an ant is certainly less than an elephant or the moon, but don't tell that to the ant's wife.


As an amateur astronomer I completely agree with your physicist buddy and with your integration of these insights. Concerning the big and small hehehehe I haven't forgotten your lesson in this topic I once started: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...y-observations.

Each and all is your wider "I" that reaches inside and out. Your "I" is actually inside and outside working together, and you (through your experience) actually create the universe at any level above bare molecules and chemical reactions and such. You make lovely red apples. Lovely red apples make "you."

This is also one of the key points that enables me to make sense of it all.

Thank you all for your contributions and insights.

Gassho
Deep bows,
Jack
Sattoday.