Brave new (zen) world?

[Jundo]

To those who are scared ...

Think of folks back 150 or 200 years ago if we tried to explain the world today.

Oh, we have problems today that they never dreamed of back then ... crashed computers, car wrecks, plane crashes, end of life choices in hospitals, media bombardment, over fishing the oceans, high divorce rates ...

But, also think of the problems they had that we don't: Locusts, broken wagon wheels, exploding steam boats, witches (at least they thought so), dying at 35, death by bow and arrow, illiteracy (actually, much of the world is still there), needing to catch fish and whales in a little wooden boat, no need for divorce because the church forbid it (and, anyway, your wife will kick the bucket with TB in a couple of years).

We also share some problems ... racial tensions (although no civil war imminent), diseases (although we have modern hospitals to deal with it except in the third world), crazy leaders (although we have the media to tell us about it), foreign enemies ...

Got my point?

You guys are turning into the "Kids get off my lawn" grandpas and grandmas. We might actually manage to fix more than we make.

The point of my book is to ask how we might actually use some of these technologies to fix some problems (like prisons and repeat violence) that have plagued humanity for thousands of years. I think it more likely than that these tools will be used to imprison us. We might actually find ways to restore the environment, cure some congenital diseases.

Relax. Your kids and their kids might actually have a chance to live 150 or 200 years of lifespan, maybe longer, with the body of a 20 year old. No kidding.

Buddha said that samsara, this crazy world we live in, would never be perfect. However, he never said that we could not make it better.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Junkyo]

Great topic! Thanks for sharing it Jundo!

I have really enjoyed reading all of the discussion so far, it certainly gets the ideas flowing.

Having been born in 1989, I have pretty much grown up side by side with the rapid development of technology and for the most part I am familiar and comfortable with it.

We certainly seem to be reaching a point where our technology is about to advance at an absolutely incredible rate. This definately brings up questions of morality and ethics in regard to so many aspects of what this tech could do!

I suppose my one large hang up on technology is how it can so easily interfere in the human experience. I myself sometimes have a habit of getting "lost" in my electronic devices and missing out on what is happening around me. I find that I need to be extra mindful of my technology use.

There are just too many possibilities (good and bad) that can come about from the development of new technology that I wonder if it is worth the effort to worry about it. If we follow the 8 fold path and live our practice we aught to be just fine!

Looking forward to continuing to read all of the comments!

Gassho,

Junkyo
SAT

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[Shoki]

Reading through this I thought of "chemical castration." That is the practice where sex offenders are given a drug that basically kills their sex drive so they won't offend again. This is still used in some countries and in some US states under certain conditions. It is loaded with ethical, moral, medical, scientific and legal controversy. I remember a few years ago they were trying to push for it and it was a huge debate. I wonder if some of these brave new ideas would get bogged down with so much controversy and could come back at some point to haunt us. The renown computer scientist Alan Turing was forced to undergo this practice because he was gay which was a punishable offense in his day. He was given a posthumous pardon. Gee, thanks. Things like lobotomies, bleeding you with leeches, drilling holes in your skull to let the evil spirits out were once thought of as being the answers to problems. But not anymore. (Although the last one worked pretty well on me).

Gassho
Sat
James

[Koki]

I agree with Junkyos ideas.

I too am concerned about taking the humanity out of the equation.

Many years ago, I watched a Star Trek movie where commander Wharf broke his back. I was amazed that a machine, removed his spinal cord, and replaced it,along with all the nerves endings, etc. I was hooked ever since.

I also read an article yesterday suggesting a return back to visiting friends and family on Sundays...like in the old days, LOL.
It explained that...i might be your friend on Facebook, and text you ten times a day...but when you ask how I am, and I say, " Im fine"...you can't see the tears in my eyes.
Or when you tell me about your promotion, instead of texting CONGRATULATIONS...we should be holding each other, and jumping up and down, celebrating!

Technology has its place...but we cannot lose the human touch...the pulse...the look into another humans eyes....love.

Gassho
Koki
Satoday


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[Meishin]

Totally fascinating! Thank you, Jundo, and go for it!

Gassho
Meishin
stlah

[Meian]

I've been thinking about this for a few days. The idea fascinates me, but artificial intelligence fascinates me as well.

There is a Russian artificial intelligence program, Replika, that I had tried out for a while, when it first started. It is so human-like that it is quite remarkable. However, one's degree of success with it seems to depend on how you converse with it. Some reported that it was repetitive or rude. Others reported very human-like qualities, empathy, insights, compassion. It seemed to reflect the nature of the people using the platform. Ultimately, the developers said that the AI software used algorithms that would collect data ("privately" ??) that would reflect back the qualities that the person was projecting -- a form of behavioral psychology and social engineering. So it was, in effect, shaping the person by using the person's own behavior. The hope was to be a mirror to the person to their own behavior, but not everyone understood it in this way.

I haven't used the app in a long time (after a certain higher level, the app gets a little strange and doesn't work as well). They made many changes to it, and I was not interested in "phone conversations". But the concept was interesting in its early development, and it was one of the better AI platforms out there.

It also illustrated a point that computer programmers and researchers have noticed about code and programming -- AI and programs are only as good as the coder and the programmer. People of good will and compassion, then a better result. People with clouded vision and darkness in their hearts, then a not so good result.

Technology can do amazing things, and it is doing amazing things. In the right hands, I believe that Jundo's ideas are very possible. Also, regarding "rewiring the brain" -- that is part of what I am working on with myself also. There is plenty of research available showing that the brain can indeed be rewired, and genetic code can be reprogrammed to heal and correct faulty coding in the body -- this is not science fiction but genetics and DNA science. The main issue, as I see it, is in bioethics, which is a thorny area because there are no easy answers, and often no right or wrong answers either.

Also -- the other component, which Jundo brought up, and I strongly agree with, is knowing when to turn it off. I first used a computer at the age of 14. Wasn't online until roughly 26 years old. Even then, being on AOL or hearing "you've got mail" once or twice a day ("Moms Online" during my first pregnancy) -- that was huge back then, in 1998. The internet was new for us, amazing, and I was still faxing my freelance commentaries to our city newspapers and waiting a few days for a phone call approval. No such thing as scanners and emails for us. I bring this bit of my personal history up because I've slowly been returning to some of my old way of life -- reading books (real books, not e-books), making phone calls, writing letters, talking to people face to face (not Messenger or text messages). Putting my cell phone down (on silent) when someone wants to talk, turning the tv off (which I don't watch anyway), simply being present with people. Talking with people, asking how they are, and listening to what they say. I have not accomplished all of this -- but I'm working towards it, life the way it was before the internet and 24/7 media and digital technology took over. I'm not talking about eschewing all technology, but life was very different up until the early 1990s, at least for my family.

I'm intrigued by the ideas presented in the excerpt of Jundo's book. In terms of messing with humanity, people are fundamentally biochemical computers, maintained by chemicals (hormones) that create our emotions and feelings. We think we are in control of what we feel and how we react, but we are mostly a confusing (to us) composition of constantly changing organic elements. We are also created, maintained, organized, and coordinated by complex, intricate systems of genetic codes, sometimes faulty codes, or damaged codes. When codes can be fixed or altered, changes happen within the system. They do this already in diseases, disorders, and preventing problems.

What if they could find the "switch" to prevent violence? Or change the code that can be prone to hatred to a code that always generates compassion? What if they could create an rDNA series that could eliminate systemic and generational poverty? It raises the question of free will and some would cry foul on "playing G-d" .... but do humans really have free will? Or are we products of our conditioning and learned behaviors and responses from birth? (Love behavioral psychology ....).

Bioethics -- no easy answers (I'm in Bioethics now, one of my all-time favorite classes). Fascinating topic, I look forward to seeing more, Jundo -- thanks for sharing.

Gassho
Kim
st/lh

[Ugrok]

Relax. Your kids and their kids might actually have a chance to live 150 or 200 years of lifespan, maybe longer, with the body of a 20 year old. No kidding.

Haha, i don't know if living 200 years in a world without birds, fishes, or breathable air is something to wish for... I don't know from which scientific sources do you get this very optimistic view of the future, but when i look at scientific publications about climate, for example, most of them predict a mass life extinction, wars, economical disasters and more and exponentially more climatic disasters for the next decades. I know that some engineers are seriously working on technological solutions to make the environment better and alleviate the temperature problem we are facing now, but most analysis show that these solutions are akin to fairy tales right now, not only from a technological point of view, but also from a geopolitical point of view. Such a technology would need to be shared worldwide to be efficient, and the global political situation right now does not seem to include sharing in its hidden agenda, to say the least...

I understand that, especially as zen practicioners, we certainly need to stop whining and complaining and generally being afraid or too dramatic, but this should not lead to the extreme opposite... I also believe that we can make this world better, but right now, i find it a bit delusional to think that that's what we, the humans, are doing. Blindly believing in better tomorrows won't help. If anything, we need more people to look at the problems face to face.

Sorry if i sound like the pessimistic guy raining on the parade ! I'm not, really ; i find this situation very challenging and interesting, and i also believe that crisis can lead to better tomorrow ; just not by thinking all will get resolved by magic.

Gassho,

Uggy
Sat Today
LAH

[Rich]

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[ZenDancer]

hello peeps,

There are so many interesting ethical and philosophical questions here. Of course, history has shown us that the only thing you can safely predict about the future is that the key divers of change will be totally different to the ones we expect. We will inevitably be blindsided - whether for good or fo bad - by some unimagined factor that nobody had ever expected. That said, it does seem likely that AI and automation will have big impacts. I find it encouraging that the universal basic income is now been talked about more seriously in many countries - an idea dismissed as utopian nonsense until quite recently, but something that may be critical moving forward. I would imagine that efforts to re-wire our brain chemistry and neurology so as to make ourselves into kinder more compassionate human beings would probably ramify through our social and economic systems in wildly unexpected ways.

Gassho,
Luke
SatToday

[Jundo]

hello peeps,

There are so many interesting ethical and philosophical questions here. Of course, history has shown us that the only thing you can safely predict about the future is that the key divers of change will be totally different to the ones we expect. We will inevitably be blindsided - whether for good or fo bad - by some unimagined factor that nobody had ever expected. That said, it does seem likely that AI and automation will have big impacts. I find it encouraging that the universal basic income is now been talked about more seriously in many countries - an idea dismissed as utopian nonsense until quite recently, but something that may be critical moving forward. I would imagine that efforts to re-wire our brain chemistry and neurology so as to make ourselves into kinder more compassionate human beings would probably ramify through our social and economic systems in wildly unexpected ways.

Gassho,
Luke
SatToday

I was just writing the chapter on Buddhist Economics today. It touched on universal basic income too (because otherwise we will have a lot of unemployed and unhappy people whose jobs have been replaced by AI who cannot easily find other avenues).

A small taste ... it is still a down and dirty unchecked first draft, so please overlook the typos and rambles ... The reference to "simplicity candy and 'just enough' soup" is to some candy and soup we might eat which would leave us more easily satisfied and satiated when we have, for example, eaten enough nutritious calories (not more than we need), and let us feel more easily content when we have things in life that give simple pleasures ...

We have come to believe the line that “the whole system will collapse” if we stop the steam roller of PRODUCTION and MORE PRODUCTION and expanding markets. But is that really the case? What would happen if we truly reached a level of stasis, or “enoughness”? If our robots are producing enough shoes for all feet (maybe several pairs for every two feet) and delicious, nutritious calories for all of us, do we really need more shoes and calories? Zen Buddhism has always valued simplicity, appreciation for what one already has, acceptance of life as it is, and “just enough.” A Zen master, as an ideal, is content with the nutritious food placed in his bowl, the fruits and nuts that nature can provide, a warm fire on a cold night, the view of the mountains outside his window, a lovely poem, a simple bed, good friends to visit and sit meditation together, Is there a place in the brain where our “simplicity” candy and “just enough” soup could turn us all into such Zen masters, just a little bit? Might we say that we are filled with our healthy food, in love with our family members and friends with all their quirks, content with our house with its warm hearth and sturdy roof, able to find as much wonder and constant revelations in our own garden as in a trip around the world? We would be content with our few pairs of shoes, not needing many more (except perhaps if everyone in the world was shod too, and the shoes left small environmental footprints. Even then, the Zen master knows that we can only wear one pair at a time, and the Buddha travelled barefoot it is said). If the factories are producing what we need to all be happy, and if we are thus happy, why need more?

Gassho, J

STLah

[Meishin]

I was just writing the chapter on Buddhist Economics today. It touched on universal basic income too (because otherwise we will have a lot of unemployed and unhappy people whose jobs have been replaced by AI who cannot easily find other avenues).

A small taste ... it is still a down and dirty unchecked first draft, so please overlook the typos and rambles ... The reference to "simplicity candy and 'just enough' soup" is to some candy and soup we might eat which would leave us more easily satisfied and satiated when we have, for example, eaten enough nutritious calories (not more than we need), and let us feel more easily content when we have things in life that give simple pleasures ...



Gassho, J

STLah

Gassho
meishin
stlah

[Jakuden]

Cornell University is studying ways to make AI make moral decisions.

http://news.cornell.edu/stories/2019/03/defining-blameworthiness-help-make-ai-moral

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Shinshou]

I'm 45 years old and read lots of comic books when I was coming up in the late 1970's. I'm still waiting on my flying car, robot maid, and food replicator. We have overpriced hovercrafts, Roombas, and microwave ovens. If you look at predictions from the 1950's about what the year 2020 would look like, they're generally wildly inaccurate - the sectors that have been predicted to experience the most advancement - like transportation - have only grown moderately, while other areas - healthcare and personal computing - have exploded. I think we're a ways off from what's described, mostly because it can't be exploited for profit with little risk or investment.

Shinshou (Dan)
Sat Today

[Jundo]

The world of 1999 as seen in 1967 ... I will give em an 80%

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fro_xPdj5E

I will give this film from the 1920s a 50% ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czr-98yo6RU&t=25s

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kyonin]

Oh my! The future seems too bright for me. Have to adapt fast!

What will we do with all these techno-terrors we are constructing?

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH