Brave new (zen) world?

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40720

    Brave new (zen) world?

    Dear Treeleafers of the Future!

    I am working on a new book manuscript called "Zen of the Future!" in which I argue that upcoming advances in neuro-science, pharmacology, DNA alterations, robotics and AI, virtual reality etc. will allow us to achieve many of the insights and virtues that Buddhism has spoken about for millenia but struggled to deliver to most sentient beings. .

    The following is a small taste. It discusses rewiring the brain and re-engineering other physiological reactions so that, for example, altruistic behavior becomes as pleasurable as sex, caring for children in general elicits the same instinctual "parental mind" that is now limited to caring for one's own children, acts of violence in anger result in sensations of physical revulsion in the potential harm doer, and like changes. It is my argument that, if drugs or other methods are made available that make charity as or more pleasurable than sex, for example, people will come to demand the drug or method just as they now crave any pleasure. In doing so, selfish pleasure will actually serve to overcome selfish pleasure. The book discusses various other scenarios by which these changes might actually come to pass.

    These changes are coming. It is just a question as to what we do with them. I also argue in the book that, inspired by Zen values, we must choose to simplify and turn the technology and machines "off" in many cases and be Luddites sometimes.

    I am not an expert on the technology itself, but it seems that all this is coming (whether we like it or not). And if it is coming, will we use it for good or how will we use it? Whether it is or is not inevitable, I leave it to the technologists to decide. If these things do become available, they can be misused, e.g, by dictators to enslave their citizens or as weapons or to sell us more tennis shoes. If the technology does come to fruition (and it seems that a lot of it is no longer just science fiction) then we had better use it well. Using these tools to bring to fruition many of the values and insights of Buddhism would be a pretty good use compared to the others.

    The future and new technologies rarely pan out exactly as we plan. Nonetheless, it is good to have goals and directions for what we hope will happen. Even Buddhism rarely pans out as planned, yet we have goals and directions for where we hope it might head.

    Please let me know what you think from this short sample (there is a lot more, and the book covers many many other topics about Zen and Buddhism of the future!) What do you think? Possible? A hope for a better world? Too scary? A Brave New (Zen) World? .

    Gassho, J

    stlah

    =======. .

    Jobs will change in the future, and many jobs will be taken over by automation ('goodbye' to truck drivers and cash register check out boys, but also maybe pharmacists and math teachers and possibly computer designers themselves. Perhaps robots would do a better job of teaching Zen! After all, most of what a Zen teacher does is incomprehensible gobbledygook anyway, with an occasional admonition to “go sit Zazen.” ) However, for those jobs that do remain, the highest ethics will be required as lives will be at stake. As we have discussed, it will be a nicer world if manufacturers actually become physically ill inside (the same feeling that they might feel if finding out that their own child had been diagnosed with cancer) each time they make a choice regarding marketing a product which might have great value to society but also possibly cause some number of children in the world to develop cancer (e.g., a manufacturer of very beneficial drugs with some risks and side effects, or nuclear or other cheap energy sources that could potentially harm the public too). Would it be possible to alter our brain and hormonal reactions so that we come to have "parental mind" for all children much as for our own children? The manufacturer would have the same feeling about the general public that any parent has when, for example, they strap their child into a car (hopefully in a safety seat) or take them on an airplane, balancing the benefits and the potential risks.

    Cooks in restaurants (assuming they are not all automated in the future), doctors and nurses, politicians, parents, school teachers, robot designers, judges and even Buddhist and other clergy would all contribute to a better world if they all became physically ill at the prospect of hurting people beyond what they truly felt in their heart was right and necessary in that case, just as any parent (or normal parents at least) today feels physically ill at the prospect of hurting their own child beyond what is necessary for their good. I will, for example, let a doctor poke and probe my child if necessary for their overall well-being, with my brain making the hard choice about what is necessary in that situation. Would it not be wonderful if that same brain center of "parental mind" became activated with equivalent emotions when our political leaders need to make a hard choice for society, or a businessman needs to market a new product, or a food manufacturer needs to raise healthy foods, all with the same feeling inside that the people of society are "my children" as much as their own biological sons and daughters? (We want the programmers of computers to design programs that do little harm too and, to the extent that AI takes over making manufacturing and quality control supervision for us, it could be programmed to make its decisions based on "the greater good" and public health with great weight than mere profit line).

    Alcoholics today are prescribed certain drugs that make them physically ill at the mere taste or thought of liqueur, might it be possible to do the same for thoughts of selfishness and greed?

    ...

    “Right action” will be as necessary to the practice of Buddhism as now. However, the difficulty involved in actually living in such ways may change with our ability to invent pills and effect mental changes that make our having such intent easier to keep, more pleasant and desired than now or in the past. When we want to study Buddhism and do good actions as much as we now want sex and hamburgers, it will become easy to study Buddhism and do good actions. Perhaps all that we need to do is "cross the wires" of our internal emotional and physical response mechanisms and connect “Buddhism” in the brain with the same pleasure centers that activate when I just say the words “sex” and “hamburgers.” We are willing generally to go to fantastic extremes of effort and endurance for sex and hamburgers, and we can rewire ourselves regarding all the good qualities we are discussing here, and the efforts to live by them. Oh, if we only went to the same extremes for a charitable act as we go to now to have the pleasure of a new fancy car in the driveway, the world will be a better place. All we need to do is figure out how to trip the same pleasure centers triggered by "new car in my driveway" with the pleasure of "charitable act." Not to long from now at all, nuero-scientists are going to figure out how to trip those same pleasure centers for whatever we wish, and the technology is no longer out of reach. A zap of electro-magnetic stimulation to the right neurons, hormones for sex associated with altruism through a change in DNA, and our "porno" on the internet will be images of hungry children being fed, seashores being scrubbed and hospitals being built. Imagine men and women actually getting that same tingle of pleasure down their spine by seeing sentient beings being saved.
    Last edited by Jundo; 03-12-2019, 03:59 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Tom
    Member
    • Jan 2013
    • 72

    #2
    Age-old questions surface from this post regarding Free Will and the nature of good and evil, or desirable and un-desirable as we're Zen people here.
    Similar questions were raised in that Tom Cruise and Spielberg movie Minority Report (don't laugh.) Indeed Spielberg did assemble a dream team of futurists to gaze into the crystal ball about what technology would bring. But if police can predict a crime and stop if before it happens, was it a crime? Do we judge people on their intentions or actions?
    And, one day, if we can program social and 'nice' behaviour, undoing millions of years of evolution, who even cares? Many anti-social behaviours, violence, tribalism, fear, aversion, have their roots in survial-oriented behaviour. I subscribe to the evolutionary psychology approach, see Richard Dawkins the Selfish Gene. One neuroscientist specializing in addiction at the Uni of Texas says only four basic impulses are programmed into the most ancient parts of our brain, parts that go back to when we first crawled out of the seas: desire for water, desire for 1) food, 2) water 3) social contact 4) sex. But now we're no longer scrambling for protein on the savannah, we have higher aspirations. Enter those nicebot brain implants.
    Dare I say it: what do we believe about the afterlife? The 'party line' at Treeleaf seems to have been "we don't know. We don't dwell on such things, including reincarnation." But many Buddhists do believe in reincarnation and the afterlife. Do 'nice bots' take away our Karma? Do we need free will to generate or un-generate karma? If we're not making our own choices, ie, reward-punishment mechanisms for certain behaviour does our karma go away?
    Most importantly: what government agencies or companies will decide what is desirable behaviour and what isn't?
    Tom
    Gassho,
    SAT, LAH.







    Originally posted by Jundo
    Dear Treeleafers of the Future!

    I am working on a new book manuscript called "Zen of the Future!" in which I argue that upcoming advances in neuro-science, pharmacology, DNA alterations, robotics and AI, virtual reality etc. will allow us to achieve many of the insights and virtues that Buddhism has spoken about for millenia but struggled to deliver to most sentient beings. .

    The following is a small taste. It discusses rewiring the brain and re-engineering other physiological reactions so that, for example, altruistic behavior becomes as pleasurable as sex, caring for children in general elicits the same instinctual "parental mind" that is now limited to caring for one's own children, acts of violence in anger result in sensations of physical revulsion in the potential harm doer, and like changes. It is my argument that, if drugs or other methods are made available that make charity as or more pleasurable than sex, for example, people will come to demand the drug or method just as they now crave any pleasure. In doing so, selfish pleasure will actually serve to overcome selfish pleasure. The book discusses various other scenarios by which these changes might actually come to pass.

    These changes are coming. It is just a question as to what we do with them. I also argue in the book that, inspired by Zen values, we must choose to simplify and turn the technology and machines "off" in many cases and be Luddites sometimes.

    I am not an expert on the technology itself, but it seems that all this is coming (whether we like it or not). And if it is coming, will we use it for good or how will we use it? Whether it is or is not inevitable, I leave it to the technologists to decide. If these things do become available, they can be misused, e.g, by dictators to enslave their citizens or as weapons or to sell us more tennis shoes. If the technology does come to fruition (and it seems that a lot of it is no longer just science fiction) then we had better use it well. Using these tools to bring to fruition many of the values and insights of Buddhism would be a pretty good use compared to the others.

    The future and new technologies rarely pan out exactly as we plan. Nonetheless, it is good to have goals and directions for what we hope will happen. Even Buddhism rarely pans out as planned, yet we have goals and directions for where we hope it might head.

    Please let me know what you think from this short sample (there is a lot more, and the book covers many many other topics about Zen and Buddhism of the future!) What do you think? Possible? A hope for a better world? Too scary? A Brave New (Zen) World? .

    Gassho, J

    stlah

    =======. .

    Jobs will change in the future, and many jobs will be taken over by automation ('goodbye' to truck drivers and cash register check out boys, but also maybe pharmacists and math teachers and possibly computer designers themselves. Perhaps robots would do a better job of teaching Zen! After all, most of what a Zen teacher does is incomprehensible gobbledygook anyway, with an occasional admonition to “go sit Zazen.” ) However, for those jobs that do remain, the highest ethics will be required as lives will be at stake. As we have discussed, it will be a nicer world if manufacturers actually become physically ill inside (the same feeling that they might feel if finding out that their own child had been diagnosed with cancer) each time they make a choice regarding marketing a product which might have great value to society but also possibly cause some number of children in the world to develop cancer (e.g., a manufacturer of very beneficial drugs with some risks and side effects, or nuclear or other cheap energy sources that could potentially harm the public too). Would it be possible to alter our brain and hormonal reactions so that we come to have "parental mind" for all children much as for our own children? The manufacturer would have the same feeling about the general public that any parent has when, for example, they strap their child into a car (hopefully in a safety seat) or take them on an airplane, balancing the benefits and the potential risks.

    Cooks in restaurants (assuming they are not all automated in the future), doctors and nurses, politicians, parents, school teachers, robot designers, judges and even Buddhist and other clergy would all contribute to a better world if they all became physically ill at the prospect of hurting people beyond what they truly felt in their heart was right and necessary in that case, just as any parent (or normal parents at least) today feels physically ill at the prospect of hurting their own child beyond what is necessary for their good. I will, for example, let a doctor poke and probe my child if necessary for their overall well-being, with my brain making the hard choice about what is necessary in that situation. Would it not be wonderful if that same brain center of "parental mind" became activated with equivalent emotions when our political leaders need to make a hard choice for society, or a businessman needs to market a new product, or a food manufacturer needs to raise healthy foods, all with the same feeling inside that the people of society are "my children" as much as their own biological sons and daughters? (We want the programmers of computers to design programs that do little harm too and, to the extent that AI takes over making manufacturing and quality control supervision for us, it could be programmed to make its decisions based on "the greater good" and public health with great weight than mere profit line).

    Alcoholics today are prescribed certain drugs that make them physically ill at the mere taste or thought of liqueur, might it be possible to do the same for thoughts of selfishness and greed?

    ...

    “Right action” will be as necessary to the practice of Buddhism as now. However, the difficulty involved in actually living in such ways may change with our ability to invent pills and effect mental changes that make our having such intent easier to keep, more pleasant and desired than now or in the past. When we want to study Buddhism and do good actions as much as we now want sex and hamburgers, it will become easy to study Buddhism and do good actions. Perhaps all that we need to do is "cross the wires" of our internal emotional and physical response mechanisms and connect “Buddhism” in the brain with the same pleasure centers that activate when I just say the words “sex” and “hamburgers.” We are willing generally to go to fantastic extremes of effort and endurance for sex and hamburgers, and we can rewire ourselves regarding all the good qualities we are discussing here, and the efforts to live by them. Oh, if we only went to the same extremes for a charitable act as we go to now to have the pleasure of a new fancy car in the driveway, the world will be a better place. All we need to do is figure out how to trip the same pleasure centers triggered by "new car in my driveway" with the pleasure of "charitable act." Not to long from now at all, nuero-scientists are going to figure out how to trip those same pleasure centers for whatever we wish, and the technology is no longer out of reach. A zap of electro-magnetic stimulation to the right neurons, hormones for sex associated with altruism through a change in DNA, and our "porno" on the internet will be images of hungry children being fed, seashores being scrubbed and hospitals being built. Imagine men and women actually getting that same tingle of pleasure down their spine by seeing sentient beings being saved.

    Comment

    • Nengei
      Member
      • Dec 2016
      • 1663

      #3
      This is indeed an interesting project. I am looking forward to seeing more in the... future. And I apologize in advance. I do some peer-reviewing (not that I am your peer) and editing (nor am I your editor). But I can tell you what I think. True to form, I'll probably not address a single thing that you are asking.

      Originally posted by Jundo
      It discusses rewiring the brain and re-engineering other physiological reactions so that, for example, altruistic behavior becomes as pleasurable as sex, caring for children in general elicits the same instinctual "parental mind" that is now limited to caring for one's own children, acts of violence in anger result in sensations of physical revulsion in the potential harm doer, and like changes. It is my argument that, if drugs or other methods are made available that make charity as or more pleasurable than sex, for example, people will come to demand the drug or method just as they now crave any pleasure. In doing so, selfish pleasure will actually serve to overcome selfish pleasure. The book discusses various other scenarios by which these changes might actually come to pass.
      There is so much variance in ethics paradigms, and in morality discussions, that I have a hard time envisioning chemically influencing people in this way, outside of a science fiction book. We have the power to do this in some limited ways now, and have for a while, and the ferocity of ethics debates about chemically changing people's behavior by force or even by their choice is not likely to be resolved anytime soon. In healthcare, the ethics of using chemical restraints are questionable.

      I believe that we are entering an awareness of the broader effects of pharmaceuticals, and that the result of this will be a decrease in their use, especially those that are less than absolutely necessary. I see an upswing in health-seeking behaviors, especially those that exclude the allopathic medical approach to illness. I think that anything that alters the way people make decisions will face more scrutiny and critical review than in the past. If it were to cause people to adhere to some group's set of morals, altruistic or not, it would--I believe rightfully--be considered non-ethical. Would it not be violating our own precepts? Perhaps these: refraining from evil, living for the benefit of all beings, not stealing (away others' free will), refraining from intoxication (if it stimulates pleasure), and maybe even to not kill (the individuality of sentient beings). Maybe an argument could even be made that it disparages the Three Treasures.

      These changes are coming. It is just a question as to what we do with them.
      Changes are coming. I'm not sure about these. Maybe. But change, certainly.

      I also argue in the book that, inspired by Zen values, we must choose to simplify and turn the technology and machines "off" in many cases and be Luddites sometimes.
      My new thing is looking at every new thing I think I need, and asking whether there is a way to accomplish its purpose with something that does not plug in and does not have a screen.

      Please let me know what you think from this short sample (there is a lot more, and the book covers many many other topics about Zen and Buddhism of the future!) What do you think?
      .

      Oh dear. You asked.

      Jobs will change in the future, and many jobs will be taken over by automation ('goodbye' to truck drivers and cash register check out boys, but also maybe pharmacists and math teachers and possibly computer designers themselves. Perhaps robots would do a better job of teaching Zen! After all, most of what a Zen teacher does is incomprehensible gobbledygook anyway, with an occasional admonition to “go sit Zazen.” )
      Jobs ARE changing. There are two things I think are important here. One is that jobs seem to go away. The other is that jobs change. It depends on your politics and economic view what you see when 1000 manual labor jobs disappear at Tsukuba Truck Werks in the same week that 200 computer engineer positions open up at Tsukuba Space Center and 900 AI development positions open at Tsukuba Skynet Satellites.

      I think that robots could be good examples of bad teachers; ones who fail to connect in some way with their students or to guide them in any way. What would dokusan be like? OMG.

      Cooks in restaurants (assuming they are not all automated in the future), doctors and nurses, politicians, parents, school teachers, robot designers, judges and even Buddhist and other clergy would all contribute to a better world if they all became physically ill at the prospect of hurting people beyond what they truly felt in their heart was right and necessary in that case, just as any parent (or normal parents at least) today feels physically ill at the prospect of hurting their own child beyond what is necessary for their good.
      I would think that most, even close to all, people in these roles already intend to never hurt anyone beyond what is right and necessary, and may even already become physically ill at the thought of going past that point.

      “Right action” will be as necessary to the practice of Buddhism as now. However, the difficulty involved in actually living in such ways may change with our ability to invent pills and effect mental changes that make our having such intent easier to keep, more pleasant and desired than now or in the past. When we want to study Buddhism and do good actions as much as we now want sex and hamburgers, it will become easy to study Buddhism and do good actions. Perhaps all that we need to do is "cross the wires" of our internal emotional and physical response mechanisms and connect “Buddhism” in the brain with the same pleasure centers that activate when I just say the words “sex” and “hamburgers.”
      This above, and then this from earlier in your post:

      If the technology does come to fruition (and it seems that a lot of it is no longer just science fiction) then we had better use it well. Using these tools to bring to fruition many of the values and insights of Buddhism would be a pretty good use compared to the others.
      Though it seems to not be what you were writing about, these passages did remind me of something I have been thinking about, which is that maybe it is "easier" now (but who knows?) to experience the goals of practice than previously because of
      - the advancement of human thought and philosophy,
      - the evolution of understanding of interpersonal and instructional techniques,
      - the growth of critical and clinical thinking processes,
      - the benefit of multiple cultural perspectives,
      - the experience of ongoing, intensive learning from childhood, and
      - the rapidity of access to knowledge and multiple paradigms.

      While many look toward chosen-one stories of discovering all knowledge and enlightenment in about five minutes from the right teacher telling us wax-on, wax-off, it's much more likely that the majority of people who experience substantive growth/progress/enlightenment/knowledge/whatever from their practice will do so through learning and experience. But just as the sciences have seen inconceivable advances in knowledge development over the past few decades, the same factors are available to those seeking spiritual advancement, and we can benefit from those in Zen practice. In my mind, this is the real change we are about to undergo. This is what the future will bring.

      Anyway, that's what I think.

      Gassho,
      然芸 Nengei
      Sat today. LAH.
      You deserve to be happy.
      You deserve to be loved.
      遜道念芸 Sondō Nengei (he/him)

      Please excuse any indication that I am trying to teach anything. I am a priest in training and have no qualifications or credentials to teach Zen practice or the Dharma.

      Comment

      • Meitou
        Member
        • Feb 2017
        • 1656

        #4
        This is such a depressing and terrifying vision of the future I'm glad I won't be around to witness it!
        Gassho
        Meitou
        Satwithyoualltoday
        命 Mei - life
        島 Tou - island

        Comment

        • Koki
          Member
          • Apr 2017
          • 318

          #5
          Reminds me of a Star Trek episode, where someone from the past asked about money. Captain Picard told them they don't use money, because in the future, everyone just works for the common good of humanity.

          Gassho
          Koki
          Satoday

          Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

          Comment

          • Jundo
            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
            • Apr 2006
            • 40720

            #6
            Originally posted by Meitou
            This is such a depressing and terrifying vision of the future I'm glad I won't be around to witness it!
            Gassho
            Meitou
            Satwithyoualltoday
            Yes, probably too late for you and me. However, anyone under 30 has a very good chance of making it to 150, and by then maybe 500?

            Fixing the ‘problem’ of ageing is the new mission of Silicon Valley, where billions is pouring into biotech firms working to ‘hack the code’ of life and human trials have already begun of revolutionary drugs – despite huge fears of the social implications, writes Zoë Corbyn


            Gassho, J

            STLah
            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

            Comment

            • Ugrok
              Member
              • Sep 2014
              • 323

              #7
              Hello !

              Apart from the ethics questions that are raised by such thinking, the fact that anyone will live long enough to see thoses technologies arise is dubious, first because of ecological problems questioning our very existences in this century, second because of available and decently exploitable resources.

              In all of the reasonable scenarios that don't end in humans disappearing due to mass extinction (and optimistically assuming that this is the way that we're gonna take, wether we want it or not), the ONLY way forward is to make our societies and economies free from fossile energy and carbon in the next 20 to 30 years. And all (or most of) the production means, pharmaceuticals, industries that could lead to mass produce the technologies you are reflecting on are deeply linked to fossile energy and carbon based society. So it's either we disappear relatively soonish, or we ditch the resources and economy system that would allow those technologies to come to fruition soonish. In both those cases, there is little chance for those technological advances to come to their full potential.

              Another thing : neuroscientists already discovered that you don't need chemicals to alter the "pleasure" brain cycle related to moral behaviour. A recent study shows that the only pleasure that does not decrease with repetition is the pleasure of giving. I think that a better and more realistic solution would be to try to modify our societies and the way we behave to better integrate and promote this fact (which, by the way, is something that treeleaf is a part of and i'm glad !), than to hope that we will give pills to everyone to reward what we (who ?) judge as "good behaviour".

              Thanks for the abstract !

              Uggy,
              Sat Today,
              Lah
              Last edited by Ugrok; 03-12-2019, 01:53 PM.

              Comment

              • Shoki
                Member
                • Apr 2015
                • 580

                #8
                If any of these ideas are implemented be prepared for a huge backlash of protest. Conspiracy theorists would have a field day. Think of the anti vaxxers, pizza-gate loonies, etc. What do you think their reaction to this would be?

                Who would decide what an altruistic act is? Some people think dropping a donation in the basket at a Catholic Church is an act of charity. Some think it is supporting an evil organized crime cult of pedophiles. Some think blowing up a bus pleases god.

                Is the point of doing charitable acts to stimulate the pleasure center? I've heard people say they do good things because it makes them feel good. Is this what some call "idiot compassion"?

                Would this all be voluntary or could you opt out? If so, then wouldn't it just be preaching to the choir? All us self righteous Buddhists would sign up but sociopaths, not so much.

                Gassho
                STlah
                James

                Comment

                • Jakuden
                  Member
                  • Jun 2015
                  • 6141

                  #9
                  It seems to me that we are no where near in a place to discuss this in the U.S., as the "right" is outraged if the "left" tries to "dictate morality" in any way. The simple answer, in the majority of minds of people where I live, is that if we all just would follow the Bible and become good Christians, then there would be no need to worry about any of this. I hear and see it, in so many words, from friends, relatives, clients, and pretty much everyone that comments on the local news on Facebook. They will say it in front of me even knowing I do not practice Christianity. Extending it a little further from upstate NY, it is the thought process of at least 30-40% of the U.S. right now. The other 60-70% of the country may not be made up of people that think quite so simplistically, but most of them would probably not be comfortable approaching a dicussion about enforcing one person's idea of moral rectitude on another, especially through technology. One of the major themes of many a Star Trek episode was warning about the dangers of allowing technology to interfere in any way with human freedom of thought

                  I had to take several Ethics courses in college, and really I felt the gist of my overall learning from them was that there is not going to ever be a clear-cut agreement of all parties involved over "right" or "wrong" in any given situation involving ethics! It is as grey as the Precepts, requiring decisions to be made as individual circumstances come up. The same situation might result in different "correct" answers in different times, or involving different people. We do our best to make our rules ethical, but they will need to be tweaked over and over as individual tests of the standards arise and precedents need to be set. Then the cumbersome but necessary legal process has to do its thing. Trying to put together a comprehensive code of conduct before these situations arise might make for fun speculation, but it may not end up having any real relevance to the actual challenges to come. Or for some of us it might be the scary ruminations that we are trying to avoid by learning to sit on the cushion! LOL

                  Gassho,
                  Jakuden
                  SatToday/LAH

                  Comment

                  • Entai
                    Member
                    • Jan 2013
                    • 451

                    #10
                    "The hand that stocks the drug stores rules the world". - Vonnegut

                    "Who watches the watchmen?"
                    - Juvenal (and/or Alan Moore)


                    Gassho,
                    Entai
                    #SatToday

                    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

                    泰 Entai (Bill)
                    "this is not a dress rehearsal"

                    Comment

                    • Tairin
                      Member
                      • Feb 2016
                      • 2849

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Meitou
                      This is such a depressing and terrifying vision of the future I'm glad I won't be around to witness it!
                      Gassho
                      Meitou
                      Satwithyoualltoday
                      I am right there with you on this sentiment Meitou.


                      Tairin
                      Sat today and lah
                      泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

                      Comment

                      • Jundo
                        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                        • Apr 2006
                        • 40720

                        #12
                        Just to be clear to everyone (I will respond a bit more later), I believe that much of this technology is coming whether we like it or not (I don't like much of it). So, it is merely a question of what we do with it:

                        Have it used by dictators to pacify citizens? Corporations to sell us more tennis shoes and make us passive shoe factory workers? Our people just stoned on some futuristic version of opioids and cocaine? Hollywood using it as some advanced VR gaming tool beamed into the brain just in order to make money?

                        Or to turn us into more altruistic Bodhisattvas more concerned about society and the public good? Using VR and the like to help people have some of the experiences and insights that Buddhism encourages?

                        If we have to choose (and I believe that we may), then I am recommending aiming for the last two. I am just the messenger, so don't shoot me!! But I am serious about the possibilities of the future. In fact, they are not my original ideas at all, and I am only applying Buddhism to what many technologists feel is almost inevitable at this point:

                        The technology will come with a certain morality anyway, maybe a harmful one. So, aiming for good and positive content is perhaps better than leaving our tastes to random nature, whatever Hollywood tells us about morality, Putin on Facebook, Madison Avenue advertisers, Chinese sweatshops, the Columbian drug cartels and whatever crazy is happening among our political leaders like now. Do you think that our tastes and moral values are freely formed now?

                        Part of the future will be knowing when to turn the technology off and put it down.

                        Gassho, J

                        STLah

                        (Musk's warning, about 2:30 in):

                        Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
                        Last edited by Jundo; 03-13-2019, 01:45 AM.
                        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                        Comment

                        • Tai Do
                          Member
                          • Jan 2019
                          • 1455

                          #13
                          Just adding a little to the discussion here.
                          This morning I saw the new of a shooting in a school here in Brazil (https://www.google.com.br/amp/s/www....erica-47558141). It shocked me and I immediately remembered this thread.
                          Perhaps drugs that can prevent things like this from happening can be of some use in the future, especially for law enforcement or as a more humanitarian treatment to criminals, preventing them from commuting new crimes.
                          But, as Jundo said, I’m also concerned with the possibility of our leaders abusing the technology and of the prospect of a new kind of segregation between the ones who can e the ones who can’t make use of them.
                          Gassho,
                          Mateus
                          Sat today/LAH
                          怠努 (Tai Do) - Lazy Effort
                          (also known as Mateus )

                          禅戒一如 (Zen Kai Ichi Nyo) - Zazen and the Precepts are One!

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                          • Nengei
                            Member
                            • Dec 2016
                            • 1663

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Jundo
                            Just to be clear to everyone (I will respond a bit more later), I believe that much of this technology is coming whether we like it or not (I don't like much of it). So, it is merely a question of what we do with it:

                            Have it used by dictators to pacify citizens? Corporations to sell us more tennis shoes and make us passive shoe factory workers? Our people just stoned on some futuristic version of opioids and cocaine? Hollywood using it as some advanced VR gaming tool beamed into the brain just in order to make money?

                            Or to turn us into more altruistic Bodhisattvas more concerned about society and the public good? Using VR and the like to help people have some of the experiences and insights that Buddhism encourages?
                            Broadening the scope a little: I believe that everything influences everything else. This is what karma is, to me. My thoughts, good or bad, influence my actions, including my responses, tics, expressions. By extension, they influence others around me, and their thoughts (through responses, tics, expressions) influence me. What I do for my mental health influences my physical health, and all my other areas of health. The choices I make may help others around me to make choices. Then our collective choices influence our environmental health, which in turn affects my physical health. Perceived problems arise because we want to make different choices and because what is important to some may not be important to others. We all radiate little spheres of influence that move around with us, interacting with others to influence the universe. What we put out comes back to us.

                            To me, this is one of the most important aspects of Sangha; that our common interests, goals, and similar actions create a larger or more powerful sphere of influence. The sphere becomes attractive to others and grows. And of course a person or a group can turn their attention to purposefully strengthening their influence in ways that vary from violent force to gentle smiles. Knowing this, we have some ability to resist. This isn't new. It has been going on as long as people have communicated with each other. The media that have been used as tools in this have changed, but the intention, the practice, and the outcomes are the same. And the range has increased dramatically in recent years.

                            If we have to choose (and I believe that we may), then I am recommending aiming for the last two. I am just the messenger, so don't shoot me!! But I am serious about the possibilities of the future. In fact, they are not my original ideas at all, and I am only applying Buddhism to what many technologists feel is almost inevitable at this point:

                            The technology will come with a certain morality anyway, maybe a harmful one. So, aiming for good and positive content is perhaps better than leaving our tastes to random nature, whatever Hollywood tells us about morality, Putin on Facebook, Madison Avenue advertisers, Chinese sweatshops, the Columbian drug cartels and whatever crazy is happening among our political leaders like now. Do you think that our tastes and moral values are freely formed now?
                            No. And I don't think they have ever been, without either (a) a strong and concerted effort to make them so, or (b) some difference in cognition that reduces receptivity to influence, such as autism. The differences now are that there are more-constructed intentions to influence larger numbers of people and that the technology exists to automate much of the effort. The things we are figuring out about what global interests--and for that matter, marketers--are doing with social media could be done by people sitting at rows of computers in somebody's mom's basement in Moscow. But why? The tech is available now to automate the searching, capturing of information, and using algorithms that create highly specific, highly targeted attacks or campaigns to influence individuals and groups. The automated processes can run 24 hours a day, 365 days per year with no rest and no potty breaks. And they eat less order-in pizza. I do think some people are starting to wake up to what is happening, but I also think what is actually happening is far, far more advanced than most of us suspect. And more far-reaching. It is already here.

                            Does Buddhism have a role in this? The options seem to be (a) doing nothing, (b) using the same, ethically questionable practices to influence the masses using someone's perspective of morality and doing it well, (c) taking a half-hearted, weakly funded approach to campaign against what is happening, or (d) taking a different tack of creating awareness of the world as it is and empowering people to recognize, interpret, and protect themselves from untoward influences.

                            Part of the future will be knowing when to turn the technology off and put it down.
                            I am making an effort to apply stoicism to my day. Turning the tech off or at least using its parts with discretion is a huge part of it. Except that I use tech constantly for my schoolwork, for my business, and for relaxation. I am never sure whether to fight against it or to embrace it. It certainly isn't going anywhere. I want to be able to use it healthfully, and to help others to use it healthfully.

                            Thank you for your teaching, Jundoshi.

                            Gassho,
                            然芸 Nengei
                            Sat today. LAH.
                            You deserve to be happy.
                            You deserve to be loved.
                            Last edited by Nengei; 03-13-2019, 09:09 PM.
                            遜道念芸 Sondō Nengei (he/him)

                            Please excuse any indication that I am trying to teach anything. I am a priest in training and have no qualifications or credentials to teach Zen practice or the Dharma.

                            Comment

                            • Joyo

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Meitou
                              This is such a depressing and terrifying vision of the future I'm glad I won't be around to witness it!
                              Gassho
                              Meitou
                              Satwithyoualltoday
                              I feel the same way. But it scares me for my children, they are only 13 and 10.

                              Gassho
                              Joyo
                              sat today/lah

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