Where do your thoughts go during Zazen

[Shokai]

I love the analogy of "driving" shikantaza posited in current thread but, This morning, another aspect of zazen arose during our after-sitting discussion. Prior to sitting we had a brief review of how the transience of thoughts was a good motive to alleviate the fear of letting go (opening the hand of thought) during Zazen. When the bell rings indicating the end of sitting, we pass around a "talking stick" when members share any insights or highlights of their particular experience that session.
Today, a lady who has been sitting Zazen for over thirty years (starting under the tutelage of a U of W Professor who had been a student of Shinryu Shizuki Roshi himself at the San Francisco Zen Center) asked how others drop thoughts, since most of her's are in pictures and take considerable time to dissipate.
So, we asked around the circle as to the form of members thoughts that arise and the manner in which they dispurse. I have to admit I was surprised to see the expressions on faces as people explained how thoughts manifested as words, both seen or heard, pictures/ sketches, faces, voices, colors, tunes, sounds, songs (one young fellow told us how his thoughts came in the form of TV commercials). And, they were surprised when I shared that I had experienced most if not all, of these forms at one time or another.
Needless to say, many went home afterward with a new perspective on the thinking processes of our minds.

gassho, Shokai
stlah

[Nengei]

I have often found myself thinking (!) about what constitutes thoughts that arise and pass, in the form of is that a thought, or not? The discussion you describe your group having is quite interesting, Shokai-san. I would say that I have experienced images, feelings, memories, imagined occurrences from the past and future, music, and conversations. I have only recently begun sitting facing a wall (I learned to sit facing out into the room and did that for 15 years). The wall I am facing is white with a texture, and as I sit my eyes begin to play tricks with swirls of pale colors: white and a couple of shades of gray, white and yellow white and light blue, earlier today it was white and pinkish. This isn't "seeing things" per se, just a product of my fixed, non-focus. A blink clears them up. It had not occurred to me that these colors were a thought, but of course I notice them and therefore there is a though there. I'm thinking of covering the wall with wainscoting, or at least painting it a different color.

Where was I going with this... oh, yes. Now that I think about it, and have some idea of things experienced by others, I wonder if maybe I have been hoping for thoughts that come up and identify themselves. "Sir, I am a thought, and I want you to come with me." I don't want to give my thoughts too much thought, because then I will definitely be having thoughts.

I have also been appreciating the driving analogy that Jundoshi described. It makes sense to me and has allowed me to be more in-touch with coming and going of thoughts. Thank you for this post.

Gassho,
然芸 Nengei
Sat today. LAH.
You deserve to be happy.
You deserve to be loved.

[Tairin]

Interesting topic. For me I guess I’d characterize my thoughts during Zazen into three categories

1. Narratives - basically my mind spinning a story about a person or event etc. This story could be about the past, present or future.
2. Meta thoughts - basically thinking about thinking.
3. Music - I have a pretty much continuous sound track going on in my head. In the absence of any other thoughts I almost always have that.

Any thoughts I have during Zazen generally disperse when I catch myself being caught up in thought and bring myself back to some element of my pose. Generally I find that either my mudra has flattened or I’ve started to slouch a bit in my posture. Sometimes I don’t catch myself at all and it is some external sound that brings me back to the moment.

How long I stay in the moment is very dependent on the day, how tired I am etc


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Jakuden]

I think I read about that somewhere, Shokai, that some people do not think verbally, and I was surprised! My thoughts are definitely usually words, blah blah blah. But I do see images in the wall ( I remember thinking there must have been over 100 images in the wood grain of my wall section at ZMM over the course of a Sesshin [emoji23]) but those seemed to float by without becoming attached.
Anyway, stuff like this used to drive me a little crazy when I began sitting, but it’s been awhile, now I consider sitting itself the only action—and as was mentioned, if the mudra is right and there is no slouch than the mind is probably following [emoji4]
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Jishin]

Mine go to the same place that they came from.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Nengei]

But I do see images in the wall ( I remember thinking there must have been over 100 images in the wood grain of my wall section at ZMM over the course of a Sesshin [emoji23])

Heh! Those wooden floors in the Zendo have thousands of faces in them. I never saw the same one twice. They taught me to see the space, not the form.

Gassho,
然芸 Nengei
Sat today. LAH.
You deserve to be happy.
You deserve to be loved.

[Tai Do]

I can identify with you, Jakuden. My thoughts are almost always words. And more than that, usually about explaining some abstract concepts (I teach Philosophy, so that’s probably why). I have to make an effort to remember images, so when they appear in my zazen, I know I’m becoming sleepy.
By the way, I also see circles of different colors in the wall sometimes. I find them funny but don’t usually pay them much attention.
Thanks for this thread.
Gassho,
Mateus

Sat today/LAH

[newby_x86]

My thoughts are pretty much a repetition of words from whatever book I've been reading currently and for me also, it is usually a sound that brings me back

Thank you for this thread

Anant
SaT

[Junkyo]

Thanks for the very interesting thread!

My thoughts are usually very mundane, often just revolving around the various things that need to be done day to day. Sometimes they are more emotionally charged if I am going through something stressful. Once in a while they may be thought of a reading, or perhaps something I listened to.

Overall they are usually very boring haha. I just sit and let them float on by like a cloud.

Gassho,

Junkyo
SAT

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[Mp]

My 86,000 thoughts are just the recycling of the same 84,000 thoughts. They originate in the same place they fall away ... =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Amelia]

When I sit, my mind often remembers the window latch that I was facing for an hour at SFZC. I don't usually sit for that long of a period, and I was very tired that day. When I jerked upward from a sleep attack, the latch was always there! For some reason, that stuck with me, although I know I probably shouldn't have been focusing so much on that latch...

Gassho, sat today, lah

[Heiso]

I tend to think of it as when I sit on the cushion I'm immediately taken a back seat from consciously engaging with my thoughts. It's like walking into a mental cinema with shikantaza being a nice comfy seat and a bucket of popcorn as I sit back and watch and try not to engage with the show. But all too often I find myself shouting at the screen so have to constantly check myself and settle back in my seat again.

The thoughts that arise seem totally random but there does seem to be a point where my (no) mind gets frustrated that I'm not playing along so throws things it knows I'm likely to engage with at me like to do lists and jobs I need to complete.

Gassho,

Neil

SatToday

[Byrne]

Some words from the great Chinese Chan master Empty Cloud (Xuyun)

“A traveler who stops at an inn may stay overnight or get something to eat. When he is finished or rested, he packs and continues his journey, for he does not have time to stay longer. If he were the host, he would have no place to go. Thus, I reason, he who does not stay is called a guest because not staying is the essence of being a guest. He who stays is called a host. Again, on a clear day, when the sun rises and the sunlight enters a dark room through an opening, one can see dust floating in empty space. The dust is moving but the space is still. That which is clear and still is called space and that which is moving is called dust because moving is the essence of being dust.” Guest and dust refer to deluded thoughts, whereas host and space refer to self-nature. That the permanent host does not follow the guest in his comings and goings illustrates that permanent self-nature does not follow the sudden arising and perishing of deluded thoughts.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Jundo]

Some words from the great Chinese Chan master Empty Cloud (Xuyun)

“A traveler who stops at an inn may stay overnight or get something to eat. When he is finished or rested, he packs and continues his journey, for he does not have time to stay longer. If he were the host, he would have no place to go. Thus, I reason, he who does not stay is called a guest because not staying is the essence of being a guest. He who stays is called a host. Again, on a clear day, when the sun rises and the sunlight enters a dark room through an opening, one can see dust floating in empty space. The dust is moving but the space is still. That which is clear and still is called space and that which is moving is called dust because moving is the essence of being dust.” Guest and dust refer to deluded thoughts, whereas host and space refer to self-nature. That the permanent host does not follow the guest in his comings and goings illustrates that permanent self-nature does not follow the sudden arising and perishing of deluded thoughts.

Gassho

Sat Today

The one comment I would add to Master Xuyun comment is that Master Dogen, and many other Zen masters, were not really "anti-guest" or looking for a sterile clean room stripped of all dust. How to explain?

The "host" needs the guests to be a "host" and, what is more, bring the inn to life. Otherwise, the inn is just an empty space (not "Empty" in a vibrant Buddhist sense, but just empty as in "barren"), bankrupt and lifeless. Of course, with only hosts or only guests, there is a problem too.

A room piled high with too much dust is a filthy, corrupt and unhealthy place. On the other hand, a sterile space and blank air without some dust has no form, is also colorless and lifeless. Empty dark space without dusty planets is lifeless too.

Host and guest must dance together, become one, and the light must shine on a little dust in the air to bring atmosphere. Something like that. Emptiness is not merely empty, but is that vibrant dance of dust as space and guest as host.

Don't know only guests, or only hosts, but let them swirl in their dance where host is sometimes guest and guest just host. Thus the inn comes to life.

Don't only know dust, or only dark and empty space, but know their dance as well.

Something like that.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Heiso]

I guess this speaks to the point that in sitting zazen we are not looking to eliminate thoughts but to witness while not engaging them?

Gassho,

Neil

SatToday