Non-Split Thread: Transcendental and Immanent and Both and Neither and ...

[Tai Do]

I really like this explanation, Jundo and Junkyo. I haven’t yet come to a good conclusion about universal or Godly consciousness. It’s literally beyond my ability to prove or perhaps even experience.
My catholic heritage and past experiencie makes me perhaps identify transcendence x immanence with the dualistic x monistic approaches in the catholic philosophical mysticism. I used to be divided among these approaches until I rejected the whole idea and started to view these as more mythological and symbolic than literal.
Sometimes I like the God/Nature approach of Spinoza identifying God with the whole universe. I don’t know. Other times I remind myself of that eternal life is simply life in the present moment, not something for after the death.
But I still chant the nembutsu sometimes, Junkyo. And sometimes I go to the mass with my mother and grandmother. Perhaps contradictory, but I try to understand these prayers as a way to be present at the moment,the here and now. If there is a tariki/God outside the universe or it simply is a way to refer to the whole universe...
Gassho,
Mateus

Sat today

[Junkyo]

I really like this explanation, Jundo and Junkyo. I haven’t yet come to a good conclusion about universal or Godly consciousness. It’s literally beyond my ability to prove or perhaps even experience.
My catholic heritage and past experiencie makes me perhaps identify transcendence x immanence with the dualistic x monistic approaches in the catholic philosophical mysticism. I used to be divided among these approaches until I rejected the whole idea and started to view these as more mythological and symbolic than literal.
Sometimes I like the God/Nature approach of Spinoza identifying God with the whole universe. I don’t know. Other times I remind myself of that eternal life is simply life in the present moment, not something for after the death.
But I still chant the nembutsu sometimes, Junkyo. And sometimes I go to the mass with my mother and grandmother. Perhaps contradictory, but I try to understand these prayers as a way to be present at the moment,the here and now. If there is a tariki/God outside the universe or it simply is a way to refer to the whole universe...
Gassho,
Mateus

Sat today

I have over time come to the understanding that Tariki and Jiriki are not 2 separate "things", but rather 2 ways of expressing what we might call our Buddha nature.

You see my buddha nature, your buddha nature, Amida or Shakyamuni's buddha nature are not different or separate. When we sit the Buddha sits, when we chant the Buddha is chanting, when we say Amida's name we are saying our own name.

I hope I am making some sense. Perhaps Jundo can elaborate more eloquently than I can. I have a tendency to make it over complicated!

Gassho,

Junkyo
SAT

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[Tai Do]

Thank you, Junkyo.
I’ll try to perceive things this way.
It’s good discussions like this that make me really glad to be part of this Sangha.
Gassho,
Mateus
Sat

[Jundo]

Could becoming truly in touch with things just as they are be a type if transcendence? As in transcending all of the distractions, narratives, that so often cloud our mind and prevent us from seeing/experiencing the world and our lives just as they are, in their clearest sense?

Perhaps the very normative function of cutting through the proverbial "crap" or "B.S." and seeing the inherent truth of our reality is transcendence; nothing mystical or magical about it.

I would offer a little caution. Sometimes if one peels the apple too far looking for the source of the sweetness, one actually loses the apple. So it is with life.

I feel that Master Dogen and most of the old Zen Masters actually had a more subtle take on this. Don't necessarily think that peeling away all thoughts about things is getting to something more "real" about the thing. Rather, see through the whole spectacle and savor the spectacle too.

Let me offer an analogy: Suppose this life is like a theatre play. Our way is to see it all as a theatre play, recognizing the dreamlike quality, the lights and stage of openness that holds it all (the transcendent) even as we see and appreciate all the action on the stage (the immanent). At the same time, the play is as real as real can be as this wonderful show (it is the story of our very life in this world, after all). In this way, we can enjoy and savor the performance, jump right in, but not get so pulled in that we become trapped by all the drama.

If one were simply trying to reduce distractions and narrative in the wrong way, one might gradually strip the play of all its color and performance. One might think that "to really understand the play" you must strip the stage bare, reduce the actors and actions to a minimum, make them silent, read only the plot summary in the "Cliff Notes," focus on only one shoe of one actor and nothing more, etc. to get to the "reality" of the play. However, rather than getting to the essence of the play, one is actually stripping the play of its true power as a play. There is a time to quiet down, simplify (if we are not paying attention to the play, lost in our own thoughts and distractions, we are missing life too), but also there is a time to let the grand spectacle of the whole performance just do its thing! Laugh at the funny parts, be bored at the boring parts, be a bit scared at the scary parts, cry at the sad parts.

Or, one might think that one needs to have some "Kensho" experience of a totally bare stage, and that is where one wants to be because the empty stage is "real" while the play is "false." For Soto folks, the open stage is an important reference to be aware of, and the stage is pregnant with all possibility that can happen upon it, but the stage is "dead" and dark and meaningless without the life of the play and actors to make it come to life. What is a stage without a show? We also realize that all pours into all ... the viewers, the actors, the stage, the lights, the parking lot outside and the popcorn in your hand ... all flowing together in and out as One Beyond One to bring the Dharma Drama to life! ... Curtain Up, let the show go on!

For Soto folks, both of the above approaches of stripping down are not as wise and rich as experiencing the play, letting the play play on, but also being aware (when things get perhaps too sad, too scary, or one's favorite character appears to get killed **) that it is just a play with actors ... of which you and I are two too. Sometimes be more aware that "this is just a play", sometimes savor one scene, or one particular line of dialogue, or one prop apple on the table or its sweetness on the tongue. Other times, forget it is like a dream, and toss yourself right in hook line and sinker! Let the show carry you away! All good, times for all that.

We imagine some mystical quality to transcendence, when we should just view it as a way of describing the overcoming of obstacles and defilements.

I think that there is some "mystical" quality to transcendence, as I describe in my posts above (and although I may be a very boring, down to earth barely "mystic" mystic).

One amazing thing that we discover in realizing that life is like a theatre play is that, we are not merely passive spectators, but also something like partial playwrights and interpreters of the story too. In fact, we are viewers and actors and playwrights and critics all at once! The sentient beings (including you and me) have some choice whether to write peace, satisfaction, generosity etc. into the story or division, anger, selfishness etc. into the story. Further, in living the story, we can interpret it many ways ... with anger or with peace in our viewing hearts, with dissatisfaction or satisfaction in our viewing hearts. So, we not only watch the play, but help create it and constantly give meaning and judgments to what we are seeing.

Out of interest, the idea of Tariki (other power) in Shin (Jodo Shinshu) buddhism is typically described as a total reliance on Amida Buddha's infinite merit as well as the 18th vow of Amida ensuring ones rebirth in the western pureland of Amida upon ones death (not a permanent place to reside either,

Amida and the Pure Land are just more fictional characters that some Buddhist story teller created to convey the wonder of this Universal Story to those who need the help of such tales. Some other people may need "Jesus" to get some handle on this story. When your heart makes them real, then they are real ... like all the characters in the show, like the two characters called "you and me" too. (Even bad things are characters too. I sometimes speak of Santa and the "Boogey Man Under the Bed" in my daughter's child mind. The former is the fictional character that we use to teach her the real characteristic of giving, the latter is the fear that she makes real in the dark, both real as real can be in her heart).

We sit Zazen, and become the play and the lights and the stage all as one to realize this wonderful Show of Shows!

SO, enjoy the show, don't make too angry and selfish a show. Realize that the characters that seem to "die" and exit stage left where really just characters all along. Each and all, you and me, are the theatre stage come to life.

Gassho, J

STLah

** PS - I actually had this happen today as I misunderstood, watching Game of Thrones Season 5 Episode 7 last night, that my favorite character did get killed ... except I did just check the internet, and turns out that it was a completely different character who got skinned alive! I am happy, although I mourn that other character.

[Junkyo]

I would offer a little caution. Sometimes if one peels theapple too far looking for the source of the sweetness, one actually loses the apple. So it is with life.

I feel that Master Dogen and most of the old Zen Masters actually had a more subtle take on this. Don't necessarily think that peeling away all thoughts about things is getting to something more "real" about the thing. Rather, see through the whole spectacle and savor the spectacle too.

Let me offer an analogy. Suppose this life is like a theatre play. Our way is to see it all as a theatre play, recognizing the dreamlike quality, the lights and stage of openness that holds it all (the transcendent) even as we see all the action on the stage (the immanent). In this way, we can enjoy and savor the performance, jump right in, but not get so pulled in that we become trapped by all the drama.

If one were simply trying to reduce distractions and narrative in the wrong way, one might gradually strip the play of all its color and performance. One might that "to really understand the play" I must strip the stage bare, reduce the actors and actions to a minimum, make them silent, etc. to get to the "reality" of the play. However, rather than getting to the essence of the play, one is actually stripping the play of its true power as a play. There is a time to quiet down, simplify (if we are not paying attention to the play, lost in our own thoughts and distractions, we are missing life too), but also there is a time to let the grand spectacle of the whole performance just do its thing!

Or, one might think that one needs to have some "Kensho" experience of a totally bare stage, and that is where one wants to be because the empty stage is "real" while the play is "false." For Soto folks, the open stage is an important reference to be aware us, but the stage is "dead" and dark without the life of the play and actors to make it come to life. We also realize that all pours into all ... the viewers, the actors, the stage, the light, the parking lot outside and the popcorn in your hand ... all flowing together in and out as One Beyond One ... Curtain Up, let the show go on!

For Soto folks, both of the above are not as wise and rich as experiencing the play, letting the play play one, but also being aware (when things get perhaps too sad, too scary, or one's favorite character appear to get killed) that it is just a play with actors ... of which you and I are two too. Sometimes be more aware that "this is just a play", sometimes savor one scene, or one particular line of dialogue, or one prop apple on the table or its sweetness on the tongue. Other times, forget it is like a dream, and toss yourself right in hook line and sinker! Let the show carry you away! All good, times for all that.



I think that there is some "mystical" quality to transcendence, as I describe in my posts above (and although I may be a very boring, down to earth barely "mystic" mystic).

One amazing thing that we discover in realizing that life is like a theatre play is that, we are not merely passive spectators, but also something like partial playwrights and interpreters of the story too. The sentient beings (including you and me) have some choice whether to write peace, satisfaction, generosity etc. into the story or division, anger, selfishness etc. into the story. Further, in living the story, we can interpret it many ways ... with anger or with peace in our viewing hearts, with dissatisfaction or satisfaction in our viewing hearts. So, we not only watch the play, but help create it and constantly give meaning and judgments to what we are seeing.



Amida and the Pure Land are just more fictional characters that some Buddhist story teller created to convey the wonder of this Universal Story to those who need the help of such tales. Some other people may need "Jesus" to get some handle on this story. When your heart makes them real, then they are real ... like all the characters in the show, like the two characters called "you and me" too. We sit Zazen, and become the play and the lights and the stage all as one to realize this wonderful Show of Shows!

SO, enjoy the show, don't make too angry and selfish a show. Realize that the characters that seem to "die" and exit stage left where really just characters all along.

Gassho, J

STLah

Thank you for the teaching Jundo! I always get a lot from your explanations! Gratitude!

Gassho,

Junkyo
SAT

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[Jundo]

If life is something like a show, act it well!

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tai Do]

Mateus

Sat today/LAH

[vanbui]

Thank you for your teaching Jundo. I first read Norman Fischer's article on "Everything made of Mind" when it first came out, but I struggled to understand the subtle meaning. Your clear explanation has helped me a lot. It reminded me of the saying 'Form is Emptiness, Emptiness is Form.

Gassho

Van
SatToday + LAH _/\_



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[Shinshou]

The only thing to me that’s problematic about the idea of transcendence is that it is described early in this thread as “marvelous.” Granted, Zen is beyond words and descriptions (and therefore beyond what that phrase means), but the implication is that “ordinariness” - non-transcendence - is therefore NOT marvelous. To me that’s a hindrance. Perhaps that’s my own hangup.

Shinshou (Dan)
Sat today


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[Jundo]

The only thing to me that’s problematic about the idea of transcendence is that it is described early in this thread as “marvelous.” Granted, Zen is beyond words and descriptions (and therefore beyond what that phrase means), but the implication is that “ordinariness” - non-transcendence - is therefore NOT marvelous. To me that’s a hindrance. Perhaps that’s my own hangup.

Shinshou (Dan)
Sat today


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We typically say that a great realization of this practice is that the ordinary is marvelous, the mundane just a miracle. In fact, marvelous and miracle are just words to convey a wonder that is hard to express in words.

Mountains are not mountains, mountains are mountains again, but also soup cans and hiccups are not soup cans or hiccups, yet soup cans and hiccups are soup cans and hiccups again.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Heiso]

When the hard borders between the inside "self" and outside "rest of the world" soften...

Despite reading similar lines for years i had a bit of an 'aha!' reading that. Thanks Jundo!

Gassho,

Neil

Sat Today