Why Is Zen Not More Popular?

[Shokai]

Jundo;
I'm not sure if I will ever decide if you are the Demon Worshipper or Hippie weirdo. Is there some way of knowing that I'm not aware of . I'm guessing what we are discussing is something that applies to all forms of religion. Unless attending is deeply ingrained in your DNA, why would you work at something that doesn't and can't give you a guaranty? (Like a one way ticket to eternity) Until recently, folks in agriculture lived a simple life and meeitng up with neighbors on Sunday morning was a treat but, I'm not sure if even that holds anymore with all the alternatives dished up by streaming TV and the internet.

gassho, Shokai
stlah

p.s. let me know about the Demon/ Weido thing if you even figure that one out.

[Nengei]

When the barriers of "self" and "no myself" drop, the accompanying tensions, frictions, fears and such tend to go with it (because it takes two to have friction and conflict). Desire is sated in such aspect of nothing lacking in the wholeness of it all. Even "birth and death" drops away in a sense because, while "i" might die, to the extent that i am also the Whole Enchilada, one does not die in the sense that the Whole Enchilada keeps on Enchiladaing.

And from this, I inch closer to conceptualizing how to lose this thing called self.

Gassho,
然芸 Nengei
Sat today. LAH.
You deserve to be happy.
You deserve to be loved.

[Anka]

I can't speak for anyone but myself. My practice has had periods void of sitting and of...well practice. The reason this happens is something I came to terms with a while back. Zazen is not easy, it requires work and dedication. After a long day at work and chores at home it feels better to lay on the couch and read a novel. However, the fact that I always come back to Zen shows it's importance, atleast in my life.

James F
Sat

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[sjlabat]

Why isn’t Zen more “popular”? Hmm…interesting question. Many Christians, here Stateside anyway, ask why isn’t Christianity (and it comes in many forms and flavors) more “popular”? I wonder if it’s even the right question. On one hand, zazen is popular. In my hospital my sitting group is doing quite well – about 8-10 on average on a Wednesday. Depends on what you consider “popular.” It’s well and good to bring up the question. But at this point in my life it does not hold my attention for long. This is simply what I do and what I try to invite others to do is pretty much straight up shikantasa – but I usually don’t call it that. I do think many people are looking to ‘do’ spirituality, not just talk about it and zazen is certainly one way of ‘doing’ spirituality. “Mindfulness” is a pretty hot ticket these days, at least where I find myself. Clinical evidence also seems to indicate that old Nishijima was on to something about the autonomic nervous system and the such. I’ve been meaning to put up an entry on zazen and clinical studies (sorry, work has kept me busier than a one-armed paper hanger the last couple of weeks!). Clinical studies, at least the ones I’ve read, have been very friendly to ‘just-sitting’ zazen as well as ‘mantra’ types of meditation. This is great! However, I do it simply for the ‘love of the game’ and if I get other goodies besides – that is extra. If a thousand others join me – that’s great. But, if I am all by myself – nothing is lacking.
Gassho
Sean
Sat,lah

[r.warn]

Many bows to all of the insight on this thread.

When I think about the popularity of Zen in the west, I can't help but reflect on the events in my life that led me to practice. When I was young I had the great fortune of living in Saudi Arabia, a non-secular country where the laws and social climate is dictated by Islam. My family could be described as agnostic, so we simply had an outsider's perspective of the culture. When we moved back to the U.S. five years later, I had a similar perspective of the secular, yet Christian dominated social institutions. I honestly don't remember much of my life before moving overseas, so in a way I got to see two societies through the eyes of an outsider.

What I learned was that both Islam and Christianity say a ton of the same stuff, albeit in very different flavors. To me, this meant that much (if not all) of it was completely arbitrary. What was true was that both societies struggled with the BIG questions, and found answers through their religion. Because the vast majority of those people grew up in and lived in societies where the major religion never changed, those answers are the status quo and so shape the reality of many minds. On the other hand, people who are atheist also have answers, that there is no God or afterlife or whatever. Still hard and fast answers.

I think that Zen is not more widespread because instead of providing answers, it challenges people to drop their questions and to see what is right in front of them. Put your money (or faith) where your mouth is and BE your faith. What would Jesus do is a fine question, but what about actually DOING it?

When one drops the separation of faith, life, self, others, etc. we find that indeed life is zazen and zazen is life. To me, that is the reason that Zen is not more popular. The separation of one's life and one's faith is much easier than bringing it out of the church into every day practice, and hard, fast answers are preferable to contentment with 'not knowing.'

I welcome any guidance on any of my comments that may be misguided or flat out incorrect

Gassho
Randy
s2d

[Jishin]

Hi,

Why is zen so popular?

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

Hi,

Why is zen so popular?

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Byrne]

IMHO the abstract and intellectual veneer of Zen probably turns a lot of westerners away from it more than anything else. Any spiritual path is pretty useless to someone who doesn’t understand it. The more popular religious movements in the west are much easier to understand without having to apply oneself to mental gymnastics or long periods of difficult meditation.

But I strongly believe that Buddhism is a very nice fit for the modern western mindset and more appropriate methods are sure to be embraced. It’s still very very young in this part of the world. It still needs more time to embrace the culture in an organic and sincere way. To a degree that is already happening. Sanghas like Treeleaf are a good example.

I find Japanese Buddhism very inspiring as a western Buddhist. Much like Japan, our culture came to the Buddhadharma late in the game. Through the efforts of many great and passionate teachers the Dharma found ways to cater to a unique population with specific issues to overcome. Zen and the Jodo schools of Buddhism are good examples of how this happened in one time and place.

We shall wait see what happens in another time and place. So long as we maintain our practice.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Gero]

Might it be that people in traditionally non-Buddhist regions of the world turn to Buddhism because they have certain expectations?

Either wishing for something truly exotic with lots of incense, golden statues, wrinkly masters with drooping eyebrows and weird Yoda quotes?
Or do they turn to Buddhism because they expect it to be a non-religion, just pure logic without all that 'nonsense' like prayers, rituals and whatnots?

Either way, when they come to Zen they soon find out that reality hardly ever bothers with your expectations and Zen fits neither of the above stereotypes. That's the Noble Truth of Dukkha for beginners! So the most fundamental teaching of Buddhism explains, at least in my eyes, why people are put of by Zen.

And besides, the best explanation why Zen is not more popular, is from Sawaki Kodo Roshi himself: "Zazen is good for nothing!"

Gassho

Gero
(sat today, and it did not feel like "good for nothing", so I must be doing it wrong )

[Beakon]

Confession Time: I try to be good at samu, like doing chores around the house and making sure the cat litter is cleaned. I'm interested in the air quality of this home, since there is an asmathic living in these quaters. There is things I see that are inter-related to zazen since it requires breathing, breathing requires clean air, I have to clean up after the animals and the dust that collects around the house. Do I have everything under control? Do I have all of my "shit" together? NO! I like Zen because it teaches me to be okay with 'what is'. So what? It takes practice to get good at cleaning. I haven't had a normal home to live in where I can practice cleaning, but I keep trying.

Sat Today-ay-ay

Sean

[Jundo]

I "non-split" the "Transcendental/Immanent" discussion from this thread (not one not two) ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?16758-Non-Split-Thread-Transcendental-and-Immanent-and-Both-and-Neither-and

Gassho, J

STLah

[Rich]

I don’t know, some things just grow slowly. The western Christian culture is still very dominant. Lots of religious and political power at play. Zen is more difficult than just saying a prayer and going to church once a week. Especially for beginners. Som Mormons came by recently and they put on a good sell. It didn’t matter when I told them I was a zen Buddhist. They still wanted me to come to their church

Sat


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[Tairin]

Ive enjoyed reading this discussion. Thank you.

I have a natural affinity towards this practice. Even if it didn’t exist I would be living in a similar way. What I find is that Soto Zen Buddhism provides an existing framework that I can follow without having to dream up any particular approach on my own. In other words I am naturally drawn here. When I look at the people in my life, my friends, my family, I don’t see that same natural tendency. I could be wrong but I doubt it.

I think it is simple as that.

Some people like chocolate ice cream more than vanilla. I’ve never cared much for plain vanilla ice cream and if vanilla is all that is available I am most likely going to take a pass on ice cream entirely.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[nate]

It only takes one...or is it all?

Master Dogen said: "If a human being, even for a single moment, manifests the Buddha's posture in the three forms of conduct, while [that person] sits up straight in samadhi, the entire world of Dharma assumes the Buddha's posture and the whole of space becomes the state of realization."

Sat Today

[Jundo]

It only takes one...or is it all?

Master Dogen said: "If a human being, even for a single moment, manifests the Buddha's posture in the three forms of conduct, while [that person] sits up straight in samadhi, the entire world of Dharma assumes the Buddha's posture and the whole of space becomes the state of realization."

Sat Today